[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore

[iamthedave]

Lemore is a Faceless Man in drag. It is known.

[nategator]

Lemore is a Faceless Man in drag. It is known.

Why in drag?

[corbon]

Because blue hair makes him look more like he is from the free cities and less westerosi? Tyrion himself remarks on it, that people in westeros would think his hair ridiculous (but he would still have any girl he wanted even with blue hair)?

YG dies his hair blue to disguise his eyes. Blue hair makes his purple eyes seem blue.

Tyrion says (thinks?) so almost explicitly at one stage after he figures it out.

On Lemore's hair being brown. If she's Ashara, then either (i) she is dying the hair (just like others around her are) or (ii) the father is not B or N but R or Aerys (so YG can get the hair).

Ashara Dayne had brown hair according to Barristan.

And we have no idea what colour hair YG has, although very dark hair does not dye easily.

I am not buying Lemore as Ashara.

-The ages are not a good match. Connington notes the Battle of the bells was 17 years ago. That puts Harrenhal about 19 years ago. I don’t think Ashara was in her mid-20s at Harrenhal. Yes, I know you can finagle to get them in the neighborhood, but they are not a good match..

Its not finangling. Its a bit of realism going past the bullshit.

First, Ashara is at least as old as Ned. It seems very likely from other evidence that she was older, by anywhere up to 5 years or more. Look at who she danced with at Harrenhal. Barristan (much older, but seems more likely to fall for a woman in her early 20s than a girl of 15, but that's speculative). Connington - Rhaegars' peer, perhaps even older than Brandon. Oberyn Martell - I think even younger than Ned, but an oldest son. That's a group of very powerful and eligible young men. We don't know if she danced with Brandon, or anyone else, but we do know that Brandon asked her to dance with Ned, so there is another older heir that she is hanging out with. Basically she's busy hanging out with a bunch of guys who are mostly older (in their early 20s or more) and all much more important and eligible than Ned, and Brandon* asks her to dance with his little brother (who seems to be crushing on her) to be nice.

So Ashara could easily be anywhere from about 38-43, and we really can't tell much better than that - and technically even those numbers are guesses. Its possible, if very unlikely, that she was another year or two younger, or even approaching 30 already at Harrenhal.

Secondly, we have only Tyrion's guess at Lemore being over 40. How many people can guess a womans age very accurately, especially at that in-determinant middle age time, and especially if the woman is fit and athletic (swims often). Frankly, if I tell you I think a womans age is 40, it means anywhere between 35-45, and I'm not ruling out 30-50! Its even worse where I am in SE Asia, where woman often age extremely gracefully and a lot of 50 year olds look like they are 25.

So Tyrion's estimate cannot be considered tightly accurate, even if he gives no internal hesitation.

In short, its bollocks to be ruling out a woman in her late 30s as Lemore just because Tyrion thinks Lemore is 40+. And we don't know Ashara's age all that tightly anyway.

* Note this: We don't actually have any reliable information that Ned had much of a thing for Ashara.

We guess he had a bit of a crush for her, due to being shy and Brandon asking her to dance with him (Ned).

We know she supposedly 'suicided' after Ned turned up at Starfall to return her brother's sword, probably very shortly after ToJ.

We know that from Starfall, Ned returned to Winterfell with Jon.

We know that post Ned returnin to Winterfell with Jon and the news of Ashara Dayne's suicide, there is speculation that Ned and Ashara loved each other - speculation probably founded on Ned's crush.

Ned may have loved Ashara. She may have been his true love. She may have loved him back. This was the picture that most of us built up from limited information prior to ADwD. But really all we had was his apparent liking/crush at Harrenhal, with absolutely no evidence of returned affection, the 'suicide' after he came to Starfall (which has multiple possible reasons, whether it was real or faked) and gossip well after the fact which appears to put several not-necessarily-connected events together and come up with N+A=item.

Its still possible, but now we have additional information about Ashara.

1. Barristan loved her, but lost out to another

2. Barristan believes she was 'dishonoured' by a Stark (at Harrenhal I think). And had a stillborn daughter.

3. Barristan still thinks highly of and respects Ned, post Harrenhal, which suggests that Ned is not the Stark who dishonoured Ashara. This puts a whole different light on the exact same revelations in Meera's story.

4. Brandon may have been a bit of a player with the ladies, but lacked Ned's sense of honour. This seems like strong supporting evidence for Ashara+Brandon over Ashara+Ned (for which the evidence is very thin indeed).

-I believe Tyrion would have noted purple eyes on Lemore. I mean, he is surrounded by secret Targaryens (and their allies), he is trying to figure out Lemore’s identity, and he FAILS TO NOTE PURPLE EYES? Tyrion?! No, I don’t buy it.

So why doesn't he notice her eye colour at all?

Yes, its a cheap trick. I don't like it. :thumbsdown:

But, its not the only time GRRM uses this trick.

-Tyrion notes Lemore was “More handsome than pretty.” Ashara was a great beauty, supposedly. You may argue that her looks have faded with age, but I would argue she is only a year or 2 older than Cersei (who was 15 when Harrenhal took place).

There are multiple flaws with this argument...

First, we don't know that Ashara was a great beauty. She was certainly attractive, with unusual eyes, and popular with a number of very eligible young men, but that's it.

Second, very few women of 40odd are still described as 'pretty'. Beautiful, yes. Handsome, yes. Gorgeous, yes. Stunning, yes. But pretty... no. There are a few 50 year old ex-supermodels floating around now who could still knock socks off just about any man, but you never see any of them described as 'pretty'.

'Pretty' to me seems to be reserved for youth. Handsome is exactly what you say when a woman has natural beauty - good bones etc, but no longer has the prettiness of her youth, and you aren't prepared to go into superlatives like gorgeous, stunning etc. Lemore is in the role of septa remember, she isn't trying to be gorgeous.

Third, Ashara/Lemore could easily be 5-6 years older than Cersei.

Fourth, even Cersei is noted as being not particularly attractive any more once she is stripped of her hair and regality (not to mention any cosmetics, supports etc she uses habitually that are not mentioned). "She can't be queen, she's as saggy as my mum..."

Different women (and men) age differently. It is ridiculous to argue that Lemore cannot be Ashara because she isn't 'pretty enough' when a) she wasn't noted as being 'pretty' as Ashara 19 years ago, b ) she's aged 19 years, c) she is still noted as being a 'handsome' woman and d) she is clearly very attractive, and not just physically.

:rolleyes:

-At this rate, we are going to find out that nobody actually died in the events surrounding Robert's Rebellion, they're all just in hiding. The first law of Westeros physics would become "Characters cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed."

Come now, you surely aren't saying that Ashara Dayne's "suicide" never looked a bit dodgy?

Heavily involved in mysterious and seemingly important events?

Close confidant of the royal family?

Threw herself off a tower into the sea?

Body never found?

Lots of people are dead from Robert's rebellion. Just not everybody. Hello, intrigue?

[Elia]

The name "Lemore" reminded me of Lem of Lemonwood, the outlaw who was with Lord Beric. From wikipedia: Located in Southeastern Dorne at the mouth of the Greenblood river, Lemonwood is the seat of House Dalt, approximately 50 miles South of Sunspear. The nearest settlements are Ghost Hill, approximately 150 miles to the North, and Salt Shore, approximately 200 miles to the West. Other than this, I dont remember any other mention of Lemonwood, but could be related?

[The Lost Lord]

Come now, you surely aren't saying that Ashara Dayne's "suicide" never looked a bit dodgy?

Heavily involved in mysterious and seemingly important events?

Close confidant of the royal family?

Threw herself off a tower into the sea?

Body never found?

I'm not totally convinced of this theory yet, but I do have to wonder -- why the heck would GRRM spend so much time on Ashara Dayne if she and her family were totally irrelevant to the plot going forward? Most of the dead people he spends time on are relatives of characters who are important now. You can tell the whole story of Robert's Rebellion with Targaryens, Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters, Arryn, Tullys, Martells, Cleganes, Reeds... and, er, Arthur and Ashara Dayne. They stick out like a sore thumb -- there's got to be more coming about them, one way or another.

[King Stannis I]

Lonmouth's wife or sister...

[cteresa]

if Lemore has a secret identity, it is going to serve the plot somehow. If Lemore is Tyene's mother, what does that accomplish? Nothing.

Not everybody has to have something secretly working for the plot. We also have, frequently, Easter Eggs, things that do not necessarily are relevant to the plot but which are ahah for readers who pay sufficient attention. This is IMO one of those - Lemore is Tyene´s mother - explains her history. And that is that. Sometimes is a cigar is just a cigar (though maybe we can guess from a reference its brand)

PS - just to add, the maybe more obvious example of an easter egg is the kitten Balerion, now the big cat Arya meets and Tommen´s bully. What does that accomplish plotwise? Nothing. But it´s still there and intentional.

[Suldog]

Thought I'd pull out my tinfoil hat and jump in - wasn't the original title of book 6 or 7 supposed to be 'A Time for Wolves'? If Ashara is Lemore and YG is actually Ashara's son, then he is almost certainly a wolf....

Yeah, I know, stupid. On a less stupid note:

The betrayal for love. My instincts tell me that Barristan wouldn't betray Dany even if he believed that YG was the rightful Aegon. He swore his oath to Dany herself, not to simply the rightful Targ heir.

But...a big theme of AFFC and ADWD is oaths, and what they mean, and how they are honored. Jaime and Barriston both question their vows to Varys and think about how dangerous an oath to a bad king can be. Briienne is going to have to deal with vows that are in conflict. Jon has struggled to remain true to his vows when it seems he needs to dance around them for the Watch to survive.

Barriston has watched Dany rule for over a year in Meeteen. He loves her and helps her - but she is a bad queen, a poor decision-maker. She feels the right to rule but doesn't have the ability, and seems to learn nothing. Maybe that portrayal was deliberate. Would Barriston abandon his vow to Dany if by doing so he was putting a better ruler on the throne? He honored his vows in Westeros, and nothing followed but death and destruction. Jaime Lannister, the most damned man in the kingdom, broke his vows, murdered his king and saved thousands of lives.

If he had to make the choice again, would Barriston choose honor at the expense of the kingdom? If YG is shown to be a better ruler, a stronger king, would he still support Dany, who would be disastrous? it would be a betrayal of love - but love for the realm.

[malarky1231]

Ashara has Dark hair, says ser grandfather. Not sure about Arthur, we arent ever given a description of him

[Manderly Maneater]

I can't buy Lemore as Ashara Dayne. It would be too much bullshit for Tyrion to just plain not notice she was a Westerosi with purple friggin eyes, when we know he spends some time examining her to try to determine who she is. If they had some method of disguising her eye colour, surely they would have used it on Aegon as well. Clearly Illyrio is willing to spare no expense for the Targaryens. The only out if this is the justification would be that the eye colour change would be permanent. Ashara Dayne wouldn't see the need to prove herself as Ashara Dayne, but they need to be able to prove Aegon is a Targaryen.

However, like another guy kinda joked about earlier in this thread I think, her name strongly reminded me of Poe's "The Raven". Lenore + Nevermore = Lemore. What's the significance of this? I'm not sure. With her pregnancy stretchmarks, she's likely to be someone's lost love (lost Lenore). If it weren't for the eye thing, I would be pretty on board with this theory, with her being both Ned's lost love and I guess also Barristan's. While there are plenty of ravens in ASOIAF, I'm not sure that the poem is The Raven and contains a talking raven would be relevant. After all, I don't think most other allusions he makes shed light on any of the plot.

Also interesting, is that we are introduced to more magical ways of disguising someone's appearance in ADWD. Perhaps Varys really does hate magic, if he's not willing to use it to fully hide Aegon's identity. Though I think most people assume Varys was speaking truthfully when he talked about his dislike of magic, I think of the lack of using magic to hide Aegon's identity and instead relying on hair dye to kinda make his eyes look not-purple to be proof of this. Might as well have told Aegon to only wear blue shirts for all the good changing his hair colour would do to hide his eyes.

[Galen M]

Ok, guys, I saw GRRM this morning at SDCC. While he was signing an autograph for me, I asked him, flat out, "What color are Septa Lemore's eyes?" He looked at me like I had 3 heads, and said, "What?" I then repeated, "Septa Lemore. She had eyes. What color were they?" He responded, "I don't remember offhand." This pretty much disproves Lemore=Ashara. If she was, he would have said that they were violet eyes, or he would have dodged the question. There is no way that he would have forgotten she had Ashara's violet eyes. If he was playing coy with me, he deserves an Oscar because he certainly made me feel as if that was the dumbest question anyone could have asked.

[Galen M]

dp

[nategator]

Ok, guys, I saw GRRM this morning at SDCC. While he was signing an autograph for me, I asked him, flat out, "What color are Septa Lemore's eyes?" He looked at me like I had 3 heads, and said, "What?" I then repeated, "Septa Lemore. She had eyes. What color were they?" He responded, "I don't remember offhand." This pretty much disproves Lemore=Ashara. If she was, he would have said that they were violet eyes, or he would have dodged the question. There is no way that he would have forgotten she had Ashara's violet eyes. If he was playing coy with me, he deserves an Oscar because he certainly made me feel as if that was the dumbest question anyone could have asked.

When people say they don't remember offhand, it frequently means that they do remember but don't want to tell you. It's one of the ways people smarter than you dodge a question.

Sorry, from your report you got played by GRRM.

You should have just asked him flatout is Lemore = Ashara and reported his reaction so we could tell you what it meant.

[yakatuus]

Ok, guys, I saw GRRM this morning at SDCC. While he was signing an autograph for me, I asked him, flat out, "What color are Septa Lemore's eyes?" He looked at me like I had 3 heads, and said, "What?" I then repeated, "Septa Lemore. She had eyes. What color were they?" He responded, "I don't remember offhand." This pretty much disproves Lemore=Ashara. If she was, he would have said that they were violet eyes, or he would have dodged the question. There is no way that he would have forgotten she had Ashara's violet eyes. If he was playing coy with me, he deserves an Oscar because he certainly made me feel as if that was the dumbest question anyone could have asked.

This will never be remembered. Great reporting tho. SSM! But I never thought of Lemore as Ashara Dayne.

+1 for journalism

[Manderly Maneater]

I imagine GRRM is greatly practiced in pretending he doesn't know where the plot is going for the sake of preventing spoilers. If he had smugfaced and said "keep reading" like he does for normal spoilery questions then we would know that Lemore's eye colour was a spoiler, so he'd have to act like it was irrelevant. Incidentally, he also gave the response he would normally give if her eye colour IS irrelevant.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

I imagine GRRM is greatly practiced in pretending he doesn't know where the plot is going for the sake of preventing spoilers. If he had smugfaced and said "keep reading" like he does for normal spoilery questions then we would know that Lemore's eye colour was a spoiler, so he'd have to act like it was irrelevant. Incidentally, he also gave the response he would normally give if her eye colour IS irrelevant.

I hope you are right.

[Fearsome Fred]

I can't buy Lemore as Ashara Dayne. It would be too much bullshit for Tyrion to just plain not notice she was a Westerosi with purple friggin eyes, when we know he spends some time examining her to try to determine who she is.

It seems to be a feature of Dayne eyes (or perhaps of certain purple/violet eyes generally) that they appear purple (or violet) only inconsistently, and only in the light of the rising or the setting sun.

Examples:

Gerold Dayne: Eyes appear black, except in the light of the setting sun, when they appear purple.

Young Griff: Eyes appear dark blue in daylight and black by lamplight; they appear purple only at "dusk". (And may well be a Dayne, raised from birth to think he is a Targ).

Lemore: Swims naked in the mornings. Tyrion is not looking at her eyes at the wrong times. Whatever his erotic preoccupation with Lenore, they are not focussed on her eyes, since he never mentions them.

If they had some method of disguising her eye colour, surely they would have used it on Aegon as well.

Tyrion seems to conclude they DID have a way of disguising Young Griff's eye color. His blue hair supposedly make his eyes look blue (except at dusk).

[Faint]

@Galen M

Thanks for asking the question. I'm with you about your assumption. Not even his eventual answer but his look of total befuddlement at the question itself. I begin to wonder whether Lemore is simply Lemore and we're making too much out of it.

My only other guess is Elys Waynewood's daughter with Alys Arryn, the one that was seduced by a sellsword, lost her bastard child by him and joined the Silent Sisters. Wouldn't she be ahead of "Harry the Heir" for leadership of the Vale if Robert Arryn dies? That would be significant. Then again, she probably wouldn't even count because she's a despoiled woman.

[senorwhack]

Lemore is the maiden herself resurrected in the flesh. Duh, winning!

[malarky1231]

I'm sure he'd knew ppl would ask about this. He probably prepared himself beforehand and gauged his own reactions. I'm positive he dodged the question on purpose, bc he knew she was Ashara. He knows who"s going to die and live, where all the major story lines will end up. He just needs to write in the details