Jump to content

[AdwD Spoilers] "Septa" Lemore


Recommended Posts

I may be the only person that desperately wants Ashara to actually be dead. Mostly I think it's a disgusted reaction to the emphasis of "...but they never found a body!" being presented as an actual legitimate point in favor of the idea, as if Starfall has a highly trained search-and-rescue squad with helicopters and thus there is an actual expectation of being able to find the body of a woman that throws herself off a cliff.

This is a work of fiction. "They never found a body" is usually a red flag that someone is actually still alive. If Martin didn't want us to expect that she was still alive, then he would have written that her body was found.

In any case, I think it would be the height of cheap writing for Martin to include a description of Ashara's striking violet eyes in virtually every secondhand remembrance of her but then fail to mention them when a character comes into contact with Ashara in the flesh. That, coupled with the apparent age discrepancy, makes for an extremely unsound fit.

These are more reasonable objections. However, there are ways of getting around both of them. We've seen before how purple eyes can sometimes be mistaken for other colors, like black, or in Aegon's case, blue. I could see how Tyrion might have mistaken Lemore's eyes as being a different, more commonplace darker color than purple, especially given that her face is framed by dark hair. And as for the "age discrepancy", well, Tyrion is only estimating. I think people put way too much stock in something that is ultimately a subjective judgment.

If we think that Lemore is indeed someone that has been previously seen or referenced within the series (which I think is reasonable), I think the most obvious candidate has to be Wylla.

This was actually my first thought when reading the book. I only changed my mind when I found out later in one of Barristan's chapters that Ashara had dark hair. This sort of threw me for a loop, since for years I'd been imagining Ashara as having light blond hair. It was enough to make me wonder if GRRM had intentionally led us to believe she had the same fair hair as other Daynes, so that we wouldn't catch on to who Lemore was so quickly.

(which generally stipulates that in order for Wylla to be passed off as a potential mother to Jon, she had to have been pregnant near the time that Jon was born anyway).

A small correction: Wylla could have had a child years before Jon was born. Women can continue lactating long after having a child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah. Tyere's hair is really light-blonde and Oberyn's hair was dark. If this septa is Tyene's mother, she should be a ble-eyed-blonde as well. We know her hair is light brown.. tyrion notices it.

Recessive genes: Lemore (Bb) + Oberyn (Bb) = Tyene (bb) is certainly possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kind of stupid ...

... but does anybody actually remember Joanna Lannister dying? (I only thought of her because for some reason I imagined Lemore to have blond hair.)

Ashara is far more convincing, but I still believe she is dead. After all, Lemore may just turn out to be Tyene's mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is kind of stupid ...

... but does anybody actually remember Joanna Lannister dying? (I only thought of her because for some reason I imagined Lemore to have blond hair.)

I'm pretty sure that Cersei remembers it, and blames Tyrion for it.

Anyways, I prefer the Quaithe=Ashara theory, especially based on the new casting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would the new casting support this theory?

because the actress for Quaithe is pretty much the spitting image of my mental Ashara, could mean nothing, or everything, especially given how involved Martin is casting sessions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we think that Lemore is indeed someone that has been previously seen or referenced within the series (which I think is reasonable), I think the most obvious candidate has to be Wylla. Points in favor of the idea include:

* The past pregnancy makes sense, as Wylla was a wet nurse and likely must have been pregnant at some point in her life for that; it's also, of course, consistent with N+W=J and R+L=J (which generally stipulates that in order for Wylla to be passed off as a potential mother to Jon, she had to have been pregnant near the time that Jon was born anyway).

* The non-septa-like non-shyness about being naked and general flirtiness fits well with both someone that made Ned Stark forget his wife and precious honor, if only for a few hours, as well as with someone who was being passed off as having done that (as a big R+L=J fan I've always been fond of the idea that Wylla actually did try to seduce Ned, though there's obviously no real evidence of that).

* Lemore's knowledge of Westeros and her ability to pass herself off as a Septa is consistent with Wylla's time spent around Westerosi nobility.

* Most importantly, perhaps, the age and likely appearance is a much better fit than is Ashara.

Now, as to how and why it is that a common wetnurse finds herself, sometime after the birth of Edric Dayne but not too long after, halfway across the world tutoring a boy being sold as the trueborn heir to Westeros, I must admit I have no idea.

A possible solution to the decision of which one, Wylla or Ashara, is Septa Lemore. If Ashara actually became Wylla, wetnurse to Jon Snow, then there is no problem. They are the same person and the situation is solved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was looking at the B/W photo, and she appears to have dark eyebrows, so I'm not thinking she's a natural blonde:

http://www.spotlight.com/7118-0198-3547

Anyways, Emilia Clarke is brunette (or at least she was when I met her).

Her eyebrows don't look that dark to me in that photo. Plus, her info at that link describes her as being blonde. I suppose it's not out of the question that she dyes her hair, but so far I'm not really seeing any great connection between her appearance and Ashara's appearance. If she ends up dying her hair dark, though, that might be a big clue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it is a wig, I remember reading an interview with her saying that she was sad when she had to take it off because the hair was so beautiful.

What interview is this? Was she talking about a wig she wore during production of a show/film/play? Or a wig she wore for her headshots? I don't think it's the latter, because her info specifically lists her as being blonde, and I don't see why she'd lie about her hair color. Plus, in every image of her I can find on Google Images, she is blonde.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it is a wig, I remember reading an interview with her saying that she was sad when she had to take it off because the hair was so beautiful.

What interview is this? Was she talking about a wig she wore during production of a show/film/play? Or a wig she wore for her headshots? I don't think it's the latter, because her info specifically lists her as being blonde, and I don't see why she'd lie about her hair color. Plus, in every image of her I can find on Google Images, she is blonde.

I believe he meant that Emilia Clarke wears the silver wig.

My point about the Quaithe girl was just that when I saw the B/W image of her, it literally screamed "Ashara" in my mind. If she has blonde hair in the show, I'll admit I was totally wrong, but it will be quite telling if she has brown hair for it.

EDIT: if you look at photos of her, you can tell her roots are dark. And here's a photo of her with brown hair (or at least VERY prominent brown roots)

http://www.londonfestivalfringe.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/The-White-Whore-and-The-Bit-Player-237x300.jpg

And here's a photo that shows how dark her eyebrows are

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4098/4915537020_4fd7a5b9d7.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea of Young Griff as Lemore's son is bonkers, if she is Ashara. If she's not Ashara it doesn't matter much if she is his mother anyway.

Ashara is not YG's mother, the hair colour would never work and it seems too far-fetched. The YG being Illyrio's son theory is also much more compelling and works to serve as a good explanation for why Illyrio and Varys do what they do.

However if Septa Lemore is not Ashara, I don't see why there would be a mystery surrounding her identity. GRRM strongly implies that there is something about her, even to a casual reader I would think some flags would be raised. But aside from Ashara, what women from 15 years ago would be a compelling reveal?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea of Young Griff as Lemore's son is bonkers, if she is Ashara. If she's not Ashara it doesn't matter much if she is his mother anyway.

Ashara is not YG's mother, the hair colour would never work and it seems too far-fetched. The YG being Illyrio's son theory is also much more compelling and works to serve as a good explanation for why Illyrio and Varys do what they do.

However if Septa Lemore is not Ashara, I don't see why there would be a mystery surrounding her identity. GRRM strongly implies that there is something about her, even to a casual reader I would think some flags would be raised. But aside from Ashara, what women from 15 years ago would be a compelling reveal?

Why can't it be be Tyene's mother. It makes perfect sense, and Tyrion would have no way of knowing, hence the mystery. Don't you think she'd have a compelling interest in her daughter's cousin being on the throne?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the idea of Young Griff as Lemore's son is bonkers, if she is Ashara. If she's not Ashara it doesn't matter much if she is his mother anyway.

Ashara is not YG's mother, the hair colour would never work and it seems too far-fetched. The YG being Illyrio's son theory is also much more compelling and works to serve as a good explanation for why Illyrio and Varys do what they do.

However if Septa Lemore is not Ashara, I don't see why there would be a mystery surrounding her identity. GRRM strongly implies that there is something about her, even to a casual reader I would think some flags would be raised. But aside from Ashara, what women from 15 years ago would be a compelling reveal?

Maybe Lemore is a female descendant from the Blackfyre line - in which case she would likely be Aegon's mother, unless Sera was not just someone from Lys but also a female Blackfyre (which would be rather complicated).

Lemore doesn't seem to have Targaryen colouring though. Tyene's mother is another possibility but would require some explaining as to how she ended up with Connington.

Ashara is a tempting possibility but the eye problem is serious; Tyrion should notice this and report it, he did on Aegon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...