96 replies to this topic

[Ygrette]

Lady Snow,
I totally agree with that. I never believed I could ever sympathize with Theon after what he did to Winterfell, but being Ramsay's captive? God, no, not even Theon deserves that. Now I catch myself hoping Theon is going to be rehabilitated (still slightly fearful that he might turn back into an asshole when that happens).

[FacelessDude]

I have never hated Theon. I know he's done some pretty despicable things when he took over Winterfell. But he was between a rock and a hard place. His father despised him because he was unwillingly warded to the Stark's. I think his father vented on him when he first appeared on Pyke because it reminded Balon of losing the Grejoy Rebellion as well as Balon thinking he was more of a Northmen than a Ironborn.

That doesn't mean what he did at Winterfell was acceptable. He was trying to prove himself to his father and the Ironborn. While trying to win acceptance from his father and defeat the Northmen from killing him and taking back Winterfell he sent "Reek" aka Ramsay to hire sellswords. It was Theon's last hope really.

I feel sorry for the guy really (that doesn't mean I think he's a good person or a bad person, he's complex). Ramsay comes back with the sellswords and betrays Theon, taking all the power that would've been Theon's for himself.

He didn't deserve to be imprisoned, flayed, tortured and slowly dismembered while being starved by the psychopath Ramsay Bolton. It would be horrendous to be tortured and degraded while slowly meshing into insanity.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

MJasper, on 19 August 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

The line that most upset me in this chapter was when Theon thought that Ned might wed him to Sansa and claim him for a son. Too Stark to be a Greyjoy and too Greyjoy to be a Stark... He did horrible things, but I can't help sympathizing with him. Ramsay Bolton is terrifyingly awesome. I cannot wait to see him get his comeuppance. It must happen!

This is when I started rooting for Theon. He wanted to be a Stark, but Ned never gave him a chance.

[Whatisdeadmayneverdie]

Ser Edward the KnightHawk, on 12 November 2011 - 11:30 PM, said:

And I really wish you were the father of the two innocent kids he killed, or perhaps you could be one of the helpless people inside of Winterfell that was slaughtered because of his idiocy.

Since Ned never killed a innocent man...oh wait first chapter

[justashadow]

I was astounded by this chapter and I do actually feel for Theon/Reek. Yes, he made his share of mistakes but he didn't deserve this kind of punishment. Ramsay is just evil. The Walder Freys were treated better.

I wonder how ppl in the North will react when they find out who Reek really is.

[S N Black]

Ser Edward the KnightHawk, on 11 November 2011 - 08:15 PM, said:

I still don't care for Theon. Fuck sympathy. He deserves every single thing Ramsay did to him.

I still don't care for Theon, but nobody deserves this, not even Cersei, lol. It's still hard to pity someone who would put children's head on spikes though.

[Thoros of Ders]

All-for-Joffrey, on 15 July 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

I thought this at first too, then I realized that the Karstark sigil is actually a SUNburst, not a starburst, I think the starburst is just ornamental. It doesn't make sense that the Karstarks would be working with the Bolotns anyway (unless the Lannisters threatened to kill Harrion otherwise) seeing how the Boltons are now the Lannisters' men. If Arnolf is anything like Rickard Karstark, he's not going to forget Jaime killing the two older ones and the capture of Harrion.

I believe these two men are the Greatjon's uncles, Hors Crowfood and Hothor Whoresbane. We met them in ACOK and I think the description matches. However, IIRC, Hors Crowfood was missing an eye but Reek doesn't note anything about one of them missing an eye in this chapter so idk.

I'm wondering who Ramsay needs to go to war with to get "Arya" back? Did Stannis intercept her or something? Jon mentioned that he saw Stannis sending two riders out a few chapters back. That would have interesting implications when Jon comes into the picture?

Or maybe it was the ironborn, which would obviously have interesting implications for Theon himself. Actually I'm going to with this theory, that's probably why Reek has use for him.

I agree with you on all of this but the Ironborn theory. The "Arya" that was being sent from King's Landing would have traveled along Eastern coast and therefore would not have come in contact with the Ironborn since they stick to the Western Coast and the farthest east they've traveled has been along the river leading to  Oldtown.

[Free Man]

While the things happening to Theon ARE bad, I can not sympathize with him. He betrayed the Starks, which were in fact his family, Robb was the only brother he ever knew... Killing the farmers boys - that is just ruthless. Not to mention all the suffering his actions caused the north... Do I want him to escape Ramsey? Probably... But the things he endures do not wash away what he did in the first place...

[cam0083]

I think I've read somewhere that the TV show will include Theon next season so hypothetically does that just put him in the dungeon getting pieces removed from his body?  They couldn't skip this far forward could they?  And was the fake Arya marched of to marry in AFfC?

[Plume]

Ok, I just finished reading this chapter and it was excruciatingly painful to read. I was angry at Theon before for his betrayal etc... And I pitied the lost boy in him. Back then I thought that Martin would just kill him or something after Winterfell. I didn't expect this haha! My teeth hurt reading about his broken teeth hurting while chewing the stringy rat meat and his overall pathetic state.

@Cam0083 - Maybe they'll show Theon from his capture to his imprisonment and additional stuff. As for fake Arya, when she met Jaime I believe she was on her way north, yes

[Arya-Underfoot]

I really didn't like Theon in Clash of Kings, and couldn't forgive him for killing those children. Before that, I just found him a bit of a jerk. But I did pity him a bit - he got himself in too deep, and at least he showed some remorse for what he'd done. Coming back to him in this condition is really pitiful - the way he's been tortured so horrifically, and yet is so pathetically grateful to Ramsey for what he could have done and didn't. And I wonder if Martin deliberately left a long gap since the last time we saw Theon to let our anger cool a bit. Clearly that's worked for some (it did for me) and not for others.

[codejinchu]

I actually love the Reek chapters. Like Arrya chapter s they are so sick it hard to put the book down. I also love the constant name rhymes, it shows his true emotions.

[Galyeon of Cuy]

I can't believe how many people fail to list the murder of two innocent kids among Theon's crimes! Did Ramsay personally carry out the murders? Yes. But Theon was 100% behind the idea. Remember, Ramsay shows him the wolf's-head brooch, and Theon clenches the brooch in his fist and sends the Winterfell men home. He knows exactly what they're going to do. Ramsay is acting on Theon's orders at that point - he's posing as a serving man. He wouldn't have killed the kids unless Theon told him to. Would people be just as forgiving if Theon had commanded "Reek" to kill the real Bran & Rickon? Is he somehow a better person just because we didn't get to know these two kids?

That being said, while I can never feel sympathy for a child-killer, I found Reek's chapter deeply disturbing in an awesome way. I'm a fan of dark storytelling, but even for me, I found myself lying in bed thinking "Maybe I shouldn't read GRRM right before I try to sleep anymore...." What was most disturbing about it was the psychological aspect. As someone earlier in the thread notes, Theon's entire personality has been purged from him. He basically has the intellect process of an abused animal at this point. Gives me the willies.

[Arya'sFury]

Theon thoroughly deserves everything he gets. This is the sort of medieval stuff I wish we did to the murderers of children. I have no idea why there is so much sympathy for him. "Daddy didn't love me, a little child murder is sure to get me his love and respect." Yes Theon, brilliant idea, chap.

Bolton is a twisted bunny, I hope he gets necrotising fasciitis.

[jotabe1789]

I hated Theon very much after ACoK. He deserved the ultimate punishment, death. For treason, for murder and for being a major idiot.
But now he got way worse than death. He paid the iron price for his crimes, as one could say. His slate is clean, as far as i am concerned.

Now, some details:
-I had been convinced that the 2 kids that Theon had killed and hanged to make them pass off for Bran and Rickon were the Frey wards! That's why i didn't think too bad of Theon for that, the kids were nasty little things. So... who were the kids that Theon killed in Winterfell? is it said? (i might have missed it, or might have gotten confused when reading -not a native speaker, and i have the bad habit of speed-reading-).

-As for why Ramsay is marrying "Arya" to claim the North, i don't think it's a matter of actual inheritable legitimacy. It's more of Tywin realizing: "We can't rule the North without a Stark in Winterfell, because the name commands so much loyalty. And we have seen that without a Stark in Winterfell, the Northmen are just a bunch of mutually feuding lords, and it's up for grabs for anyone."

-Theon thinking he could have married Sansa... it's really not so unthinkable: if Lysa hadn't killed Jon Arryn, Robert wouldn't have gone to the North triggering... well, everything. Without Robert in the North, the Lannisters would have convinced him to marry Joffrey to either Margaery or to a Dornish princess, rather than Sansa (Arryn might have argued for Sansa, out of the old friendship, but he would also see the sense of the Margaery option).
With Sansa barred from the royal marriage (unless she was considered for Tommen), any other of the great houses would be a great choice. Theon was expected to be the Kraken heir (and Balon wouldn't have rebelled with Ned alive). So Theon and Sansa would be a very reasonable match.
Do we know what Sansa thought of Theon?

[Kate Poem]

jotabe1789, on 29 January 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

Now, some details:
-I had been convinced that the 2 kids that Theon had killed and hanged to make them pass off for Bran and Rickon were the Frey wards! That's why i didn't think too bad of Theon for that, the kids were nasty little things. So... who were the kids that Theon killed in Winterfell? is it said? (i might have missed it, or might have gotten confused when reading -not a native speaker, and i have the bad habit of speed-reading-).

They were some miller's kids. Theon "knew" their mother.

[winwolf]

I liked Theon always i totally get the decisions he made.
That Ramsey needs to die very painfully.

Edited by winwolf, 17 February 2013 - 06:33 PM.