[ADWD SPOILERS] Daenerys 4

[KayteStone]

Wow, the only thing tedious about these chapters is having to read everyone's whiny responses to them! I don't buy the argument that they're just "filler"--I would pay close attention, as Martin has a way of pulling what we perceive as inconsequential details into major plot points. And I'm glad that Dany has reached some stumbling blocks. Things were going too easy for her and there needed to be a realistic challenge to prevent her from swooping in and handily taking the Iron Throne. Regarding the Daario complaints--keep in mind, this is a girl barely into her teens. Yes, she's extraordinarily strong and wise for her age, but be a bit more forgiving when a gal gets a crush! The Sansa comparisons are not warranted. Dany was at least astute enough to send Daario away and not be blinded by what a colossal d-bag he is.

[Jennelyn]

Maybe half of this thread is completely worthless and is nothing but a bunch of bitching and moaning. Amazing. Thankfully SOME people actually want to discuss the book that has been written (and quite brilliantly) rather than some other book they'd rather write themselves.

Anyway, I like Dany's plan to give Hizdhar time to prove himself. Smart move. It would be smart to marry a Ghiscari if she planned to stay in Meereen to rule, but obviously she doesn't. Perhaps if he does prove himself she will leave him as the king when she goes to Westeros.

Keeping Daario away is probably a good idea in that it removes the temptation. Clearly betrayals are the works, though, so we'll see how this plays out. I know things are looking grim for our Silver Queen, but I believe her restraint both in not killing hostages and not giving into her desires will pay off in the long run. She will make a better ruler than her father was.

[brashcandy]

edit

[dark sister]

I think these chapters are long, tedious and painful on purpose. He wants us to dislike these chapters because IMO, GRRM wants to show that Dany is not universally loved. In the lead up to this book, Dany was a big fan favorite, top three w/ Tyrion and Jon. What better way to show how reviled she is in the slaver cities than to actually make us feel it.

I think he does this with lots of characters and is quite skilled at evoking certain emotions in the reader. For instance, Darkstar... everyone hates Darkstar b/c he reads like an amateur wrote him. But I think that's the point... reads don't just hate evil (some love it) so the character has to be poorly written and noticeably so in order to get the readers to hate him.

lol am I the only one who likes Darkstar? I didn't think he was 1-dimensional, I'd actually like to more about him...about all the Daynes, really. I know there's some mystery behind Edric Dayne's birth. Martin wouldn't put him side-by-side with Arya in ASOS if he didn't have some significance. And he looks so like a Targaryen...and he knows about Wylla. Robert mentioned the same name. Did Ned have a threesome with Ashara and Wylla the wet nurse at Starfall? ;-)

Wow, the only thing tedious about these chapters is having to read everyone's whiny responses to them! I don't buy the argument that they're just "filler"--I would pay close attention, as Martin has a way of pulling what we perceive as inconsequential details into major plot points. And I'm glad that Dany has reached some stumbling blocks. Things were going too easy for her and there needed to be a realistic challenge to prevent her from swooping in and handily taking the Iron Throne. Regarding the Daario complaints--keep in mind, this is a girl barely into her teens. Yes, she's extraordinarily strong and wise for her age, but be a bit more forgiving when a gal gets a crush! The Sansa comparisons are not warranted. Dany was at least astute enough to send Daario away and not be blinded by what a colossal d-bag he is.

WORD. I think part of why these chapters are hard to read for some people is because there's probably a lot of symbolism and mystery going on instead of outright action (like a bunch of pitched battles). Like: who is the Harpy? Was that child's charred bones simply some clever ploy to make Dany lock up her dragons? Is Daario some bastard Targaryen? (I recall her saying that his eyes looked purple once, in ASOS maybe, and his hair is always dyed.) Was Jorah really the love betrayal? Was Plumm really the gold betrayal? Will she REALLY only have 3 betrayals? I see her having many. What about Quaithe's words? "Beware the perfumed seneschal." Why? He's a hand-wringing windbag. Could HE be the Harpy? Or maybe the Shavepate, the first to be on board with Dany but who notoriously loves to torture people? Hizdahr is too obvious a candidate. Why does Quaithe want to "show her the way"? What does she care?

How will she train/teach the other two dragons? How will she even find them now? How can Selmy speak of the PtwP so casually, and not explain to her what that whole prophecy IS? Could, gods forbid, HE be untrustworthy?

... :devil: no I'm just messing around with the last one. But Selmy officially has my Character Who Knows the Most Inside Information But Annoyingly Won't Tell Dany ANYTHING Relevant vote.

Oh and for people who asked about Summerhall...Aegon V (the Unlikely) was there with his LC of the KG Ser Duncan the Tall, as well as his son Duncan Prince of Dragonflies, trying to hatch dragon's eggs. Lady Jenny of Oldstones, Prince Duncan's paramour, was also there, and they all perished in a fire that got out of control (either by sorcery, treachery, or both whilst trying to hatch these dragon's eggs). A lyric of Jenny's song goes something like "and Jenny dances with her ghosts", so maybe she didn't die simply by burning, I don't know. Interesting side note: in the D&E story "The Mystery Knight", Dunk really wants to see a dragon egg. Egg tells him that one was laid in his cradle, and that it is green and white, all swirly, and that all three of his brothers had one too. Aerion's was gold and silver, with lines of red running through it. The one at Whitehalls where a wedding/Blackfyre rebellion is taking place also has a dragon's egg, which is red and gold, with whorls of midnight black. Aegon adds that there are lots and lots of other dragon's eggs on Dragonstone, as well, which could be a clue in the "current" days of ASOIAF...

P.S. I would have loved to see Aerion's egg hatch especially. Since it seems that the color of the dragon egg determines the color of the dragon itself...a silver-gold dragon, with red highlights? I can't imagine anything more fantastic-looking

:wideeyed: :wub:

[Fryie]

It's not whining to insist that some thing could have been done better (and have been done better in other books).

It's still asoiaf, it's still nice to read, but I am definitely missing a lot of things in Dany's chapter so far.

The most important, perhaps, is character depth. Dany has it, and it's good to see her character develop. All the other people in Meereen just don't. Seems to me like every chapter, 5 new characters named Dakzhhasdkkjsd no Asdioilkloz sprout from nowhere. I can't tell them apart and I don't even bother, because they're just too one-dimensional.

Also, I've always felt that Martin was very comfortable writing about Westeros because it's similar to medieval Europe. When he writes about other cultures, though, I think he's not quite as skilled. Where Martin is able to create great Westerosi names that sound a little like known ones, yet are somewhat off, the foreign names are just trying to hard. Including "x(h)", "-ys" and some other character sequences randomly everywhere is quite cheap. But that's okay, Martin is no Tolkien. I find it more annoying that especially Slaver's Bay is sooo decadent, soooo ridiculous, soooo evil ... come on, every place has more than one shade.

[Wah-Tah]

I've never been a big Dany fan, so reading her chapters is always a bit of a pain for me.

However, I do enjoy getting to see glimpses of Ser Barristan, even if it does mean that Dany always ignores his advice.

[KaterWaiter]

I think this chapter (as well as the previous of Dany's bits) make the reader really think moreso than her storyline in the past books. If you put yourself in her shoes, would you really be willing to walk past three slave cities after hearing some of the atrocities that occur? The manner of creating Unsullied armies itself is enough to cause anger. Morally, I would feel obligated to try to help the enslaved, as Dany did. And that was welcome, at first. The slaves were happy, she was happy, no problem, right? She only began to realize what an error this might have been when she decided to stay in Meereen and found things are not as black and white as they seem.

Honestly, what do you do in this situation? It seemed ethically the right path, freeing the slaves and abolishing the slave trade. But it only led to bloodshed and heartache. In trying to do what was right, Dany caused so much more suffering than would have occurred otherwise. And she only did what any of us might do in her stead. But it's been done, that's in the past. Now looking to the future, Dany's choices are limited and unhappy. So I think it is interesting, reading how she is trying to make amends for the pain she caused, and pondering how she might best move on towards Westeros without leaving even more destruction in her wake.

[Ser Leo Targaryen]

_

[nymeria235]

I personally think that the reason Dany is torn between continuing on in the slave cities, and going back to Westeros has to do with her actions. Like before Astapor (I think that was the first slave city she came to, and freed?) she was respected based soley on who she was. The mother of dragons, born from fire, a true Targaryen. Because of this, people gave her food, shelter, save passage; her Dothraki stuck with her even though she is not relevant to them at all without Kahl Drogo.

All of the sudden she frees the slaves, and is known as "the mother" and she is respected for her ACTIONS, not just because she has Dragons. She feels as if she is doing something, living up to her name, proving that she is a queen because of what she does, not her dragons. This makes her want to stay and continue her regime of freeing all of the slaves, taking of Mereen. Because of this perhaps she is abandoning her dragons, which creates a problem; we see that she cannot escape who she is. Her dragons increasing unruliness reminds us that she MUST return to Westeros and claim what is hers, but how can she even think of doing so, when her work in the slave cities is left unfinished?

I think that Dany must make some sacrifices. She's forcing her Westeros principles on a place that it does not belong, and by being so stubborn how will she ever get the skills needed to be Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms?.

[Ser Buggerthat]

i think Daario will be the betrayel of love

[addie]

Ok, I am going the other way here, even though I reas interesting things in this thread.

I always found Dany's chapter boring (especially back on Acok, all this march, and then the waiting, and that scene in the house od the Undying that I hated, especially with all that happens in Westeros at the same time.), I agree with the comment that she had it to easy.

I like her chapter more here, as I think it's shows her weaknesses and she seems more a real person.

Nevertheless, I still find she is to way out of the main arc, so I am releved to see that eventually so many people from westeros are coming to her so she can play a role in the major plot. I thought this would never happened!

[Symeon Silvertongue]

IMPATIENT READERSSSS !!!!!!

The most annoying thing i have ever read, and if you people were near me id slap you all across the face , is the idea that Martin skipping 5 years is a good idea. I know that if he did do it that all you people would be changing your minds saying that the characters dknt feel real, because they are different. I dont know if youve noticed but these past 2 books have been essentially about character developmentIn !! If he skipped 5 years he would have to explain it all in flash backs, but this way we see it through the events.

Despite the punctuation/spelling issues (sorry, I'm old) this is one of the most perceptive points so far on this thread. I'm sure Charles Dickens had similar criticism heaped on him in the late 19th Century (through the medium of, I don't know, newspapers or something) while he was writing his humungous fictions that he would string out while he thought of the best possible ending. GRRM is nowhere near as good a writer as the Dick, but he is an equally gifted storyteller IMHO. I understand that you could simply find the Dany chapters 'boring to read' or whatever, but has no one noticed that everything in this SAGA has taken TIME? Every plotline and character has developed at its own pace and its to Martin's credit that he tries to build (or less charitably, wind up) a character through events before he allows them to commit defining actions. The best characters act and enact with others and their environment as they would given all that's happened to them so far. Tyrion is the best example of this; even though some of his chapters in ADWD have been quite flat (Tyrion 3 was the worst in the book, I think, worse than any of Dany's), he has been acting like exactly like a sad, self-loathing, sardonic dwarf would after just being shunned by his family and country and murdering his father and former lover because his emotions for once got the better of him.

Dany is simultaneously driven to perform the noble actions that will make her feel more comfortable taking an entire kingdom by force and fearful of the complex adult world she'll have to inhabit when she "gets there". As good a pair of motives as any for her to dither about trying to righteously right a wrong she was partially responsible for in the first place. It'll take a collision between befuddled dwarf and mixed-up dragon queen to push those two into a more action-oriented space. And when that happens, GRRM, there'd better be fireworks, or else!

[SirFrancisCromarty]

I think we can all pretty much agree on a couple points after reading through this thread. We all like the books, and we kind of just want to see Dany kick a little ass again. That said, I'm wagering we will see that after we soak up this story line a little bit more.

My personal feeling: hurry the hell up Martin!

[winwolf]

Ye dany story line just need some speed or other POV characters around her