31 replies to this topic

[Xray the Enforcer]

pg 395

[ipsuel]

zzzz...

after this chapter, i've decided i'm going to read all dany's chapters backwards starting at the end of the book, cuz at least by then, maybe there will be something worth reading. ;-)

i feel like this is my literary equivalent to whale wars... where i watch every episode cuz you know, something might actually *happen* this time... yet every episode i say 'why did i waste time'

i am only glad that i just started the series a cuple weeks ago... if i had been waiting the years that others have, i'd be sorely disappointed.

[BarrileteCosmico]

Really? I thought this was the most interesting Dany episode to date, and things are definitely moving in the direction where you won't be making those comments anymore. Anyways, compared to Feast, a lot has happened

[ipsuel]

BarrileteCosmico, on 13 July 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

Really? I thought this was the most interesting Dany episode to date, and things are definitely moving in the direction where you won't be making those comments anymore. Anyways, compared to Feast, a lot has happened

I hope you're right! Nothing would please me more :-)

[Loras]

There are so many parallels drawn between Dany and Cersei in this chapter that it redeems Dany somewhat.  When AFFC was released many criticized how Cersei was the subject of a never-before-seen prophecy that seemed like it was tacked on, I'm beginning to see a pay-off here.

Dany's rule is getting out of control, I don't understand why she still believes that she has any control of Meereen.  The person with all of the control is the Green Grace, or as I'm going to refer to her from now on - The Harpy.  She pointed Dany in the direction of Hizdair, and as I suggested at the end of Dany IV, she is the one with the influence to stop The Sons of the Harpy.  Hizdair must have some rivals in Meereen, someone who would commit a murder with the sole intention of undermining him.

So the Pale Mare from Quaithe's prophecy has arrived, I suspect that like Joffrey's death, this will make Dany put an even greater stock in what Quaithe has said.  This should get quite interesting.  

Dany really is floundering in this position as ruler of the city, before she was a conqueror - breezing through cities and turning them upside down leaving destruction in her wake.  She isn't cut out to rule, poor girl.  

I will be very disappointed if Dany the Conqueror becomes the saviour of Meereen, as opposed to actually having to rule effectively.

[AnotherDeadStark]

I agree with everything you said Loras. I really enjoyed this chapters and I really think Dany is going to be in some trouble if she ever does manage to conquer Westeros. She has not been a good ruler of one city, how will she be capable of ruling the 7 kingdoms?

I like the way her story is unfolding now. It seemed far too easy for her in the previous books once she started gaining power. Finally she has some difficulties to deal with and we'll see if she can struggle through them enough to learn a few things about being a leader.

[The BlackWolf]

Me too, totally agree Loras. The Meereen situation is a mess, though it should get interesting very soon if Quentyn and co. arrive before the real threat.  As long as Jorah doesn't sweep in with one great idea to save them all, which would be far too fairytale.  Starting to get why GRRM referred to it as the Meereenese knot, so much going on.  No mention of Victarion yet either, whose last minute arrival wouldn't surprise me- just like Stannis' sudden salvation of the Wall?

Didn't enjoy the chapter too much, but really looking forward to the situation it's setting up.  Don't think she should be trusting the Green Grace or Hizdahr at all, but then I keep doubting and thinking maybe Reznak is actually the Harpy leader... We'll see.

[Swordswench]

I think a lot of Dany's problems with Mereen stem from her being a foreign occupier trying to undo an ancient culture and shape it into something that it will never be. In Westeros on the Iron Throne, even if she had her enemies, she would be considered to be culturally one of them -- head of a monarchy restored, not a usurper or conqueror -- and would have a much easier time of things as a ruler. Not a whole hell of lot easier, but definitely not as difficult as what she's dealing with now.

[VarysTheSpider]

I'm going to cut against the grain here, because I think that Dany actually is doing a good job as ruler.

Granted, it doesn't appear that way because Dany is constantly reacting to events, but god, it could have been so much worse. She could have gone after the Harpies and unleashed a blood bath on the city. She could have looted the whole place and carried on marching for Westeros, leaving her people to the mercy of the Yunkai'i. She could have marched towards Astapor and lost the city altogether. She could have become a paranoid recluse or a ruthless tyrant. I'm sure many people in her position would have been assassinated by now.

Loras, on 14 July 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

There are so many parallels drawn between Dany and Cersei in this chapter that it redeems Dany somewhat.

Very true, that. Cersei surrounded herself with second-rate agreeable idiots and pissed off all her allies one by one, she became overweight, an alcoholic, and even more casually cruel than she was before. Dany has gone in completely the opposite direction: she's tried to make new allies (and even somewhat succeeded), she's planting crops and feeding her people. Where Cersei allowed her prophecy to make her paranoid, Dany is merely cautious, and surrounds herself with people who do disagree with her. She's kept her basic kindness and compassion. Cersei is woefully short-sighted and thinks a strong-ruler must constantly be scheming, but Dany knows the wiser path is sometimes to do less, or nothing.

She's a foreigner in a city she doesn't know and has half the world against her, but... she's managing. She hasn't lost the city, and perhaps more importantly, she hasn't lost herself. The situtation she finds herself in isn't perfect, but it's probably the least worst she could have hoped for, and that's still a hell of an achievement.

(Yeah, I love Dany. )

Edited by VarysTheSpider, 17 July 2011 - 09:31 AM.

[AnotherDeadStark]

VarysTheSpider, on 17 July 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

She could have looted the whole place and carried on marching for Westeros, leaving her people to the mercy of the Yunkai'i.

IMO, this would have been the right move here. As much as she likes to think that they are her people, they aren't. Her people are on Westeros and that's the direction she should be heading right now.

[VarysTheSpider]

AnotherDeadStark, on 17 July 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

IMO, this would have been the right move here. As much as she likes to think that they are her people, they aren't. Her people are on Westeros and that's the direction she should be heading right now.

I definitely think it's possible that in terms of her ambitions for the iron throne that she may well regret her decision to stay. However, I really disagree with the above. They became her people the moment she became their ruler; the relationship between ruler and ruled is a two way street: if she's going to wield power over the people of Meereen, then she needs to be responsible for them too. She knows there's much more to being a queen than sitting on a throne.

[Sand Viper]

Dany's adventures in Meereen = US adventures in Iraq - it is clear that GRRM is writing in the mid to late 2000s.

[AnotherDeadStark]

VarysTheSpider, on 17 July 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

They became her people the moment she became their ruler; the relationship between ruler and ruled is a two way street: if she's going to wield power over the people of Meereen, then she needs to be responsible for them too.

She made them her people, yes, but they aren't truly her people. She should never have become the ruler of Meereen. She should never have attempted to hold power over the people of Meereen. She should have taken everything of value she could use to buy a larger army, ships and anything she needs to get to the Iron Throne.

Ser Jorah's advice to her had simply been to go get an army of unsullied, not stay in slavers bay and try to create a brand new kingdom for herself. She only half listened to his advice which, admittedly, is more than she does for most of her advisors. She's foolish and while some of her poor choices are simply due to her inexperience, I believe that it will cost her the throne in the end (if it doesn't, it's only because GRRM doesn't want to end the story with out her on the throne).

[VarysTheSpider]

AnotherDeadStark, on 17 July 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

She made them her people, yes, but they aren't truly her people. She should never have become the ruler of Meereen. She should never have attempted to hold power over the people of Meereen. She should have taken everything of value she could use to buy a larger army, ships and anything she needs to get to the Iron Throne.

But she doesn't just want the throne, she wants to be a queen. There's only really two people who get the difference in the story at the moment - Dany, and Stannis, and while Stannis is older Davos had to explain it to him, but Dany who is much younger figured it out herself against the advice of those around her.

In any case, perhaps she shouldn't have assumed power originally. It's a bit of a different question though to whether she's been a good ruler since taking power. All I'm saying is that while the situation looks as though she's screwing it up, I think she's actually holding it together quite well.

Edited by VarysTheSpider, 17 July 2011 - 02:12 PM.

[Emo Jon Snow]

I've been in love with Dany from the start, but man this book makes is really tough, and these past few Dany chapters have been terrible.  She listens to just about anyone, then seemingly makes wrong decision after wrong decision.  Selmy has been in court for most of his life, and guarded kings and their family, if anyone would offer sage and trustworthy advice that would be in her best interest, it would be Barristan, he is one of the few who recognizes her as the true heir to the Seven Kingdoms, yet she always ignores him and rather listens to the people she conquered.  The Daario thing is annoying the hell out of me as well.  Where is the strong fearless girl who melted a slaver from Astapor? The mother of dragons and wife of Khal Drogo?

Edited by Dracarys, 19 July 2011 - 08:38 AM.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Dracarys, on 19 July 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

I've been in love with Dany from the start, but man this book makes is really tough, and these past few Dany chapters have been terrible.  She listens to just about anyone, then seemingly makes wrong decision after wrong decision.  

I agree and am finding it difficult myself as an enormous Dany-Stan.  I feel like there are better ways to show that she is struggling as a ruler than to have her go from every decision turning out perfectly (a storm of swords) to every decision turning out horribly (a dance with dragons).  

Quote

Selmy has been in court for most of his life, and guarded kings and their family, if anyone would offer sage and trustworthy advice that would be in her best interest, it would be Barristan, he is one of the few who recognizes her as the true heir to the Seven Kingdoms, yet she always ignores him and rather listens to the people she conquered.

Barristan has been giving her truly awful advice ever since he revealed who he really is:
1) Lock the dragons in the pits, then never go near them for her own safety (and unfortunately she heeded this advice).
2) Have a Tourney to make the people happy instead of opening the fighting pits (wtf?!?).
3) Meet the Yunkai in the open field (he seems to just want honor and glory).

Ser Barristan is a pale imitation of Ser Jorah in terms of giving useful advice.  He knows nothing of Meereen, Slaver's Bay, or the free cities and doesn't seem to care to find out.  Jorah knows about every goddamn culture in the world it seems.  Sure Barristan's way less complicated to have around but...  On that note, I am convinced that Dany will take Jorah back, now.  She thought of him fondly this chapter and wished he were there.  

Quote

  The Daario thing is annoying the hell out of me as well.  Where is the strong fearless girl who melted a slaver from Astapor? The mother of dragons and wife of Khal Drogo?

Seriously.  Fucking Daario needs to die NOW.  I thought she was finally done with him after she sent him off last chapter for being a creepy bad guy but apparently he's just that hot.

[Completely Headless Ned]

I actually liked this chapter. More for anticapatory reasons.

How many of the Yunkai are there, it seemed like a lot when Quentyn was there. Open battle doesn't really seem like a great idea as they would probably be pretty outnumbered.

[LannisterStark]

Swordswench, on 16 July 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

I think a lot of Dany's problems with Mereen stem from her being a foreign occupier trying to undo an ancient culture and shape it into something that it will never be. In Westeros on the Iron Throne, even if she had her enemies, she would be considered to be culturally one of them -- head of a monarchy restored, not a usurper or conqueror -- and would have a much easier time of things as a ruler. Not a whole hell of lot easier, but definitely not as difficult as what she's dealing with now.

**I agree with you Swordswench. I would only add that Dany's big problem is that she has lost focus on her long-term goal:
to return to Westeros. Dany is too focused on ruling in a foreign land when Dany should be focused on returning to Westeros
to conquer the seven kingdoms. That is her true destiny. Side note: I think Dany made a mistake not to open the fighting
pits.

[Glyndwr]

Im just waiting for Dany to grow a set to be honest instead of poncing about all "pride & Prejudice" for Daario.
Stop daydreaming about the berk with the gold tooth & get training those dragons...............quickly !!!
I am excited though that in the last Bran chapter I read he was told he wont walk but he will fly , Bran on the back of a Dragon or using his warg abilites with one.....??

Edited by Glyndwr, 25 July 2011 - 03:11 AM.

[Tammy]

VarysTheSpider, on 17 July 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

I'm going to cut against the grain here, because I think that Dany actually is doing a good job as ruler.

Granted, it doesn't appear that way because Dany is constantly reacting to events, but god, it could have been so much worse. She could have gone after the Harpies and unleashed a blood bath on the city. She could have looted the whole place and carried on marching for Westeros, leaving her people to the mercy of the Yunkai'i. She could have marched towards Astapor and lost the city altogether. She could have become a paranoid recluse or a ruthless tyrant. I'm sure many people in her position would have been assassinated by now.



Very true, that. Cersei surrounded herself with second-rate agreeable idiots and pissed off all her allies one by one, she became overweight, an alcoholic, and even more casually cruel than she was before. Dany has gone in completely the opposite direction: she's tried to make new allies (and even somewhat succeeded), she's planting crops and feeding her people. Where Cersei allowed her prophecy to make her paranoid, Dany is merely cautious, and surrounds herself with people who do disagree with her. She's kept her basic kindness and compassion. Cersei is woefully short-sighted and thinks a strong-ruler must constantly be scheming, but Dany knows the wiser path is sometimes to do less, or nothing.

She's a foreigner in a city she doesn't know and has half the world against her, but... she's managing. She hasn't lost the city, and perhaps more importantly, she hasn't lost herself. The situtation she finds herself in isn't perfect, but it's probably the least worst she could have hoped for, and that's still a hell of an achievement.

(Yeah, I love Dany. )

I'm continuing to see parallels between her, Cersei and Jon.  Jon, I think, is doing a great job at tactical positions, but their are a lot of people unhappy with him on the wall and he's not made some good relationships there, which I think will come to haunt him.

Dany is in a similar position but it seems that she is understanding that she has to make alliances within the city in order to keep her rule and keep peace.  Should be interesting.  I wish Quentyn would hurry up and get there though because I'm really interested in that meeting.