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[Xray the Enforcer]

pg 407

[Jane Doe]

On the bottom of p408

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and yet R'hllor shows me only Jon Snow."

I don't think Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, but this seems to be suggesting...

[Ahri Adaran]

My crackpot theory is that AA = J + D in some fashion... you need Ice (Jon) and Fire (Dany) for the mojo. If it's not that, it's probably Dany.

I was actually surprised that Melisandre honestly thinks Stannis is AA, I thought she was riding on more bullshit than that.

Edited by Ahri Adaran, 12 July 2011 - 10:55 PM.

[Vikingkingq]

I've never been a fan of Melisandre, but her chapter actually did what the Cersei chapters from AFFC were supposed to do - take a villain and make them the hero of their own story.

And why I still dislike Melisandre's fundamentalism, I have to give her some serious props for the trick she pulled with Mance Rayder.

[Myiagros]

Just finished this chapter, what a sneaky bitch, thinking back though it was kind of foreshadowed by the duel between Rattleshirt and Jon, wasn't Mance known as a good swordsman?

[Howdyphillip]

Jane Doe, on 12 July 2011 - 10:45 PM, said:

On the bottom of p408

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and yet R'hllor shows me only Jon Snow."

I don't think Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, but this seems to be suggesting...

I caught that as well... I hope that we get some kind of story about Jon's birth in this book...

[ipsuel]

I loved this chapter... caught the AA/Jon reference but i will reserve opinion til the end of the book. I never was a fan of Mel but this chapter may have changed that.

The implications about the sorcery we learned about here can be really far-reaching. And the way GRRM writes, he always shows something in one chapter, then secretly hides it in another. Like baby-switching as a small example.

Makes me wonder what else seems one way but is really another

[KyleLitke]

I don't really think Jon is AA, it doesn't seem to fit the prophecies, but I did catch that comment. Also, if Melisandre was originally praying for a way to find AA and it showed her Stannis (speculating as to how she came to think it was him), it may not be that Stannis was AA, as she incorrectly interpreted, but that Stannis would lead her to him.

Anyway, really liked this chapter. One thing that I think spoke volumes about Melisandre that we hadn't really seen before was her wanting Devan to stay at Castle Black for the sole reason that Davos, who doesn't even follow her god, had already lost four sons and had suffered enough. It was an unnecessarily kind act that surprised me from her.

And Mance still being alive, I actually didn't see it coming. I feel like in retrospect I should have. I hated how he was portrayed when "Mance" was about to be burned...I could see reacting as the fire reached him but I hated how he suddenly turned cowardly and renouncing everything before they even put him in the cage. Now we know why and it makes perfect sense.

I'm still not clear on what exactly she's seeing, though. Arya's over in Braavos and she seems to be talking about "Arya" as if she's currently running, which doesn't seem to fit Jeyne Poole unless an awful lot happened off camera (plus why would Jeyne run to the Wall?).

Edited by KyleLitke, 13 July 2011 - 09:29 PM.

[Xanderpanda]

Quote

I'm still not clear on what exactly she's seeing, though. Arya's over in Braavos and she seems to be talking about "Arya" as if she's currently running, which doesn't seem to fit Jeyne Poole unless an awful lot happened off camera (plus why would Jeyne run to the Wall?).

I may be utterly mad but knowing that Arya is off in Bravos and constantly hearing about this "grey girl" running away all I could think of was Greyjoy. Is it possible Asha got away and is for some reason running further north?

[Spaßvogel]

Xanderpanda, on 14 July 2011 - 01:20 AM, said:

I may be utterly mad but knowing that Arya is off in Bravos and constantly hearing about this "grey girl" running away all I could think of was Greyjoy. Is it possible Asha got away and is for some reason running further north?

For some reason, I pictured a girl with greyscale, hehe, but I think you may be closer to the mark with Asha.  

Also @Ahri Adaran posted the exact thing I was coming on here to post:  Mel truly believes that Stannis is the one which really surprised me when I read it.  It pleasantly surprised me really.  

Some other things in her fires:  the wooden face, a heart tree?  The wolf boy?  Rickon or Bran?  The eyes throughout the forest...ravens?  The new faces carved in the trees?  Mel thinks these represent the others, but is it the three-eyed-crow that Bran has already met?  

Phew.  I remember when GRRM revealed the Melisandre POV that a lot of people were displeased.  He also hinted that it would give too much away if she had a POV, but I think he managed to pull off whatever he was going for.  I'm stunned, wowed, impressed with characterization, lulled into the flames by the prose...

[Jay Bee]

Spaßvogel, on 14 July 2011 - 02:48 AM, said:

For some reason, I pictured a girl with greyscale, hehe, but I think you may be closer to the mark with Asha.  

Also @Ahri Adaran posted the exact thing I was coming on here to post:  Mel truly believes that Stannis is the one which really surprised me when I read it.  It pleasantly surprised me really.  

Some other things in her fires:  the wooden face, a heart tree?  The wolf boy?  Rickon or Bran?  The eyes throughout the forest...ravens?  The new faces carved in the trees?  Mel thinks these represent the others, but is it the three-eyed-crow that Bran has already met?  

Phew.  I remember when GRRM revealed the Melisandre POV that a lot of people were displeased.  He also hinted that it would give too much away if she had a POV, but I think he managed to pull off whatever he was going for.  I'm stunned, wowed, impressed with characterization, lulled into the flames by the prose...

Greyscale? Hmmm, that makes me think of Shireen as a possibility. Can anyone remember where she is exactly at the moment (Dragonstone? Or has she been moved?)

And, while I like the idea that it's Ashra (nice one), I get the feeling it ain't her. Someone younger, more 'little sister-like' than the balls-and-all killing machine that is our Ms Greyjoy (or should I say 'Mrs Ironmaker'? Nah, she'll always be a Greyjoy to me)

But you're right about neither the real nor fake Arya seem to be options, so it'll be interesting to see. I'm also ruling out Sansa, though technically I guess there's no reason why it couldn't be her...

[King_In_The_North]

Shireen is in Eastwatch, with her mother.

[Ser Grifter]

Great chapter, and actually stunned by the Rattlebones/Mance switch although reading the burning scene again it all makes more sense

[Jay Bee]

King_In_The_North, on 14 July 2011 - 06:47 AM, said:

Shireen is in Eastwatch, with her mother.

*slaps forehead* Ahh, yes, of course. Well, that means I have no idea who on earth Melisandre is talking about.

Unless it's just a future vision of Arya...

[Lhazarian]

Quote

  “The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of
such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer,
a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s
essence does not change, only his seeming.”

Is there any significance to the bolded section above? Has Davos been a subject of Melisandre's sorcery?

[stevelabny]

I really hated the way Mance went out earlier, seemingly out of character, but since Jon watched it while we were in his POV, I couldn't come up with any real theory as to why that wasn't Mance.

This works for me.

I'm also a little surprised that Melisandre actually believes her shit, but I kinda figured it could go that way when her chapter was first announced.

As for the grey girl running north...

Asha, Jeyne, Shireen are all possibilities. But the first person who came to my mind wasn't a girl, but a woman... Maege Mormont, with Robb's letter.

[Xanderpanda]

stevelabny, on 14 July 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

I really hated the way Mance went out earlier, seemingly out of character, but since Jon watched it while we were in his POV, I couldn't come up with any real theory as to why that wasn't Mance.

This works for me.

I'm also a little surprised that Melisandre actually believes her shit, but I kinda figured it could go that way when her chapter was first announced.

As for the grey girl running north...

Asha, Jeyne, Shireen are all possibilities. But the first person who came to my mind wasn't a girl, but a woman... Maege Mormont, with Robb's letter.

You just blew my mind.

[Loras]

Wow - without doubt my favourite chapter so far!  I didn't expect GRRM to make Mel a sympathetic character, but I really liked what he did here.  In a few short pages we learned so much about her.  While the plot of the chapter wasn't mindblowing, don't get me wrong the reveal was, I am in awe of the writing!

Some observations from this chapter:

* Melisandre sees a black tide rising up to smash towers perched on a cliff.  In 'The Wayward Bride', Asha mentioned that Aeron has disappeared and is trying to raise the wroth of the Drowned God to smash down his fury upon Euron Greyjoy.  That is my interpretation of that vision.

* I noticed the same thing about the finger bag, does Melisandre have Davos' luck?  That would just be a bit creepy.

*Melisandre was sold as a slave, that is very interesting.  I wonder where she was born, I am thinking that she might be Northern and that her whole purpose is to be the instrument against the Great Other.

* Is the three-eyed-crow and instrument of the Great Other?  Surely not, as the Children of the Forest were fighting the Wights in Bran II.

* Mel is so insecure that she always checks for her own safety first, loved the characterization here.

* 'He will not love me, but that is how it started with Stannis' - I'm calling this now: Melisandre is Dany's treason for love.  I think that Dany's three treasons will come from godly women: Mirri Maz Durr, the treason for blood, The Green Grace, the treason for gold - because Dany destroyed the Slave Trade and economic hope of Meereen, and Melisandre who is going to cling onto the idea of Jon as AA even when she knows its Dany, because she loves him.

****** Crackpot theory I know, but I like it ******

[Guinevere Seaworth]

I'll just echo a few comments here:

A part of me is glad to see that Mance is alive and kicking, but another part says another switcheroo!?!  First Jeyne/Arya, then Prince Aegon/orphan baby, and now Rattleshirt/Mance.  GRRM is sure fond of this trick.

Mel was a meh character, but that got dissolved in a heartbeat when she kept Devan safely behind for Davos's sake.  As my board name suggests, Davos is one of my favorite characters and her sympathetic attitude towards him and his family went a long way for me.

It is interesting that she could see the 3 eye crow/Bloodraven and Bran (woodenface, corpse white and a thousand red eyes with a boy with a wolf's face).

I assume that the great winged shadows are dragons.

Missed the fingerbag thingy.  I'm positive that Davos lost that in the Blackwater Bay.  Mel was in Dragonstone.  How in the heck could she have gotten a hold of it?

Loras, that is one awesome crackpot theory!  It is totally plausible.....

[Wellspring]

I like the ideas here. I actually thought that the grey girl was Jeyne Poole, escaping from her wedding to Ramsay Bolton after the Manderlys do whatever they're planning on doing. It might also be Jeyne Stark (nee Westerling)... remember in Feast that Jaime's mental description of Jeyne conflicts slightly with Catelyn's, and that Lady Sybell only rides for the West with two children, not three. Has Jeyne escaped with Ser Brynden?

Are we sure that AA and the PWWP are the same thing? Also, the dragon has three heads. So three could share the honor.