[ADWD SPOILERS] Reek 3

[Robb_]

The Boltons are such excellent hate figures, along with the Freys.

I don't expect Ramsay to live for too long. As said in this chapter he isn't the greatest fighter, he just wildly swings his sword. He is not the smartest. And his father has no intentions of letting him take over his reign and ruling the North. Please GRRM, let Stannis or Jon meet him in battle.

[Lelouch Li Brittania]

I never hated Theon as many people in the forum seems to have hated him before this book. He always wanted to be "that bad guy" but never actually went and done it. His only "evil" doing was killing two boys, while everything else was done by someone else but the blame fell into Theon's shoulder. So I don't think he deserved this at all (I wish this happened to Joffrey), and just shows how weak-minded and immature Theon always were.

[EddardCorleone]

Roose is more humane than Ramsay but it still doesn't mean he is nice.

He knows that Ramsay killed his son and if ever had any other kids Ramsay will kill them too.

[par]

Ramsey calling Theon "Reek" does not make sense for me.

The first reek was his close companion, his friend, a man who was in some respect his equal.

With Theon, things are different. He is his toy, his pet, a man that for some reason he liked to torture, mutilate and degrade.

By calling Theon "reek", he made a comparison between the first reek and theon, and I wonder why...

[Kate Poem]

Hmm, Ramsay's "reason" for tortures, mutilations and degradation are sick and monstrous, but...

Theon:

trueborn son of Lord of Iron Islands.

Ramsay;

bastard of one Stark's bannermen;

Theon:

handsome, smiling, trained by knight in swords and bow, wenches and whores for every call;

Ramsay:

"trained" by Reek. Raper.

Theon:

"Prince of Winterfell", heir of Iron Islands.

Ramsay:

"Reek".

I think there are his "reasons" for his evil doings...

[ysTooCool]

:agree: For me, there are quite a few "purely evil" characters: Ramsay Bolton, Joffrey, Gregor Clegane, Biter. And Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are pretty close to purely evil. Roose knowing what his bastard is and turning a blind eye is just so wrong. :tantrum:

Biter isn't purely evil IMO. He was trained in a fighting pit with his tongue plugged out in Flea Bottom by Rorge, poor guy literally didnt "know" anything other than fighting and eating. Rorge is the purely evil guy, IMO

And joffrey, i think he has the cruelty in his blood , but the lack of proper parenting just enforced it by 100 times; Robert didn't love him, and cersei was overly protective

[winwolf]

Ramsay is such a psycho that his idea of a good time is a dinner with a mess everywhere, dogs running around the hall, skins (?) on the walls, a dead dog on the ground, and Reek randomly chained in the corner.

Ye exacly that purely evil character

Theon chapters amazing so far

[Bad Hound!]

I too am intrigued by Roose's willingness to talk frankly with Theon. Why?

Then we find out at the end of the chapter that Lady Dustin and Roose have some sort of purpose for Theon. What is it?

There's something going on here that GRRM isn't telling us explicitely, but there is something.

[Xasthur]

Hmm, Ramsay's "reason" for tortures, mutilations and degradation are sick and monstrous, but...

Theon:

trueborn son of Lord of Iron Islands.

Ramsay;

bastard of one Stark's bannermen;

Theon:

handsome, smiling, trained by knight in swords and bow, wenches and whores for every call;

Ramsay:

"trained" by Reek. Raper.

Theon:

"Prince of Winterfell", heir of Iron Islands.

Ramsay:

"Reek".

I think there are his "reasons" for his evil doings...

What I really like on the Reek-Ramsey-relationship is that Ramsey obviously isn't just a plain sadist. On a re-read, I found that the fact that Ramsey is Theon's "Reek" in the first place, and subdues himself under Theons authority (a better looking, high-born, arrogant lad) and then turns the whole whole relationship 180° arround is a huge turn on for Ramsey. GRRM makes several implications that Ramsey is into all this BDSM-stuff.

Sadly this isn't really well translated into the TV-series since Book-2-Ramsey is replaced with this Ironborn-officer (can't remember his name).

[Lord Grabass of El Cerrito]

You know my nephew was reading ACOK and he just wants Theon to be horribly tortured to death.

Can't wait to see what he thinks when he reads ADWD.

I feel like I'm definitely in the minority as somebody who thought Theon was beyond reprehensible for his actions in ACOK, and now still thinks of Reek as that same little snot who murdered two innocent children. Being tortured doesn't wash away one's sins. I think what Reek is going through is horrific and undeserved, but that doesn't mean that I think Reek is suddenly a more nuanced character because of it. There's no redemption in his mistreatment. I appreciate how his torture could cause some of the more bloodthirsty readers to reconsider their eye-for-an-eye philosophies, but Theon/Reek is still a murderer and an all around Grade A d-bag.

In fact, I think I'm growing a bit weary of GRRM's tendency to elicit sympathy for unsympathetic characters by simply maiming them. Jaime's injury played a part in his ongoing attempts to recalibrate his moral compass (but he's still an unrepentant attempted child killer), so he's difficult to lump into that category. But Theon has yet to undergo any such transformation. He's simply more pathetic. I'm horrified by his treatment and I want it to stop (hopefully it has), but I still want him to answer for Winterfell.

[calmyourwits]

Is there any info on the original Reek's origin? I'm starting to think he was actually Bolton's legitimate son.

For now that's all we have. That's possible that Reek was Bolton's son. He's full of secrets :P

[calmyourwits]

I never hated Theon as many people in the forum seems to have hated him before this book. He always wanted to be "that bad guy" but never actually went and done it. His only "evil" doing was killing two boys, while everything else was done by someone else but the blame fell into Theon's shoulder. So I don't think he deserved this at all (I wish this happened to Joffrey), and just shows how weak-minded and immature Theon always were.

Yeah I never hated Theon too. :P I was just surprised when he turned his cloak, but that's kind of what happens in ASoIFI with situations like Theon's, right? I mean, he was never a Stark. His immaturity was caused by the people around him during his growth. Remember it was said there Ned was always cold to him even though he was nice. I just hoped that it didn't turn out that way, he was a boy and he wasn't part of Balon's Rebellion, I think it would be different if he was treated differently.

[jbent87]

I think it's interesting that GRRM goes a little deeper into Roose Bolton's character/history so soon after Melisandra's POV chapter, where the reader associates with and somewhat begins to like her as well. He may just be doing this to express that there are no black/white characters, everyone is gray in a sense or he could just be sucking us in to pull the rug out from under us. I like to think it's the latter.

Lady Stoneheart killing Ramsay sort of like she took out Jinglebell (?) at the RW would be pretty sweet. I think Ramsay is already working toward his plan of taking out Roose, though... and keeping that sinister character that is Ramsay around for a little longer would make for a better read IMO. Plus, GRRM is constantly reminding us of the theme throughout these books of something along the lines of "kindness/compassion = weakness." Roose expresses some of that in this past chapter in his conversation with Reek about how he knows he should kill Ramsay but he can't bc of the act of how horrific kinslaying is.

Would like to see Asha/Stannis rescue Theon at the Ramsay/"Arya" wedding @ WF. Maybe Theon "wins" the new Kingsmoot (if it's necessary - I'm a little confused with that process and where Theon stands) and then comes back and ultimately kills Ramsay, having a Stannis/Iron Islands alliance fully take control of the north.