88 replies to this topic

[Swift]

Rhaegar, on 16 July 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

On a different note, Reek is just SO tragic- for me this is possibly the best arc of the book, just for how well all of his chapters are written.  I only really care about the Boltons as the other side of the eventual Northern uprising, and I don't think I'd ever be able to buy Theon as a 'redeemed' character, but it's tough to feel anything except awful for him.

Theon's story arc so far has been very good. I think the first Reek chapter has been one of the best in the book so far (about to p. 500). The very beginning of Reek I was so good, when he had the rat and was afraid that the gaolers were coming for him.

[Reyne]

Stark Swordsman, on 14 July 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

This chapter has me suspecting that Roose might have figured Arya out. The m'lord/my lord distinction matters and having looked at some Arya ACOK chapters, she addresses him as "my lord". Roose would have been cunning enough to solve what missing highborn girl would have fit her description. He likely didn't do anything so as to keep his prize if he needed her, without letting anyone else know about her.

Very good question - but I don't think so. He would have tried much much harder to keep her close at hand (ex: Take her with him when he leaves Harrenhall!) if he knew that

[malarky1231]

Like everyone else, Bolton doesn't have a damned clue where Arya is. He knows that Jeyne isn't the real Arya though. The wedding is just a mummer's farce.

[Swordswench]

Andhaira, on 16 July 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

Anyhow, one thing I really disliked was the fact that Roose Bolton committed a rape. That is really out of character IMO. I mean, Roose is a cultured fellow. He likes Hippocras, for crying out loud, instead of ale. He should be above such base impulses.

He's also a man of tradition and lordly privilege. Remember the way he treats Nan/Arya at Harrenhall? He seems to find purpose even, in keeping with the limits and roles of class (as well as taking delight in reminding others of their own places in society). I think that's part of what drove him to seek legitimization for Ramsay, aside from it providing an expedient way to extend his house's reach across the North in a legalistic sense. There are probably plenty of lords that wouldn't find it necessary to have their bastards legitimized in order to give them holdings/have them help them play the game.

If he can resurrect and nuture a rivalry that goes back 8 centuries, and if the Northmen really did practice First Night back in the day, then under the "right" circumstances I'd say he's capable of rape. I don't think he'd rape a titled woman, though; just smallfolk -- and probably only if he was unmarried.

[Andhaira]

I wonder what you all think about the fact that according to Bolton, Umbers also commit rape on a regular basis. Actually, I really like this revelation. The Umbers are a fan favorite, and it is just like GRRM to throw in greyness to their character.

Honestly, I can see the Greatjon commiting rape across his lands to while away the time. However, would he then kill the newely wed couple in order to keep the news from getting to the Starks?

[Swordswench]

There's rape and then there's First Night -- not necessarily mutually exclusive practices, but I can see how First Night could be ritualized as a kind of "blessing" to a smallfolk marriage in a hierarchical, patriarchal society. Not that Roose is going to make that distinction...

Edited by Swordswench, 17 July 2011 - 12:02 PM.

[malarky1231]

Bolton favors discretion, as he says multiple times in his chapter. "My realm, always quiet and peaceful". Somewhere along those lines. I don't if the Umbers follow this same principle, but from what I've seen, they're pretty big and loud, so maybe not. Then again, they are pretty violent guys, so they probably did kill smallfolk out of bloodlust. I wonder if any Starks practiced this after it was outlawed?

[VarysTheSpider]

Brilliant chapter, possibly my favourite so far. Ah Roose, how I've missed you. And I too am loving Theon's arc, but as I said in the Wayward Bride thread, I don't think he's at all suited to be a leader, even a puppet one. I hope his arc leads him toward helping Jeyne escape north to the Wall/Stannis. Even though he knows she isn't really Arya, it would be a start in making amends for what he's done while also regaining his old bravery and initiative.

Andhaira, on 16 July 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

Anyhow, one thing I really disliked was the fact that Roose Bolton committed a rape. That is really out of character IMO. I mean, Roose is a cultured fellow. He likes Hippocras, for crying out loud, instead of ale. He should be above such base impulses.

Well, I never took Roose to be asexual, though perhaps he is less impulsive now than when he was younger. One thing we do know about Roose though is that he could not give two shits about anyone who has virtually no use to him. When Arya asks him a question at Harrenhal, there's a classic line about how Roose looks at her as if his dinner had started talking.

Rhaegar, on 16 July 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

Actually  felt quite embarrassed at the noise I made when I read "If she pops out  sons like she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with  Boltons" - what a line!  

Yeah, great line. My other  favourite was from one of the cook's at Barrowton: "[Ramsay]'ll bed Lord  Eddard's little girl, they say, but we're the ones who'll be fucked  when the snows come."

Andhaira, on 17 July 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

I  wonder what you all think about the fact that according to Bolton,  Umbers also commit rape on a regular basis. Actually, I really like this  revelation. The Umbers are a fan favorite, and it is just like GRRM to  throw in greyness to their character.

Kind of like earlier in  the book when Manderly's knight tells Davos about the blood sacrifices  made to the heart trees, and then tells Davos that there is much he  doesn't know about the north. Suddenly gives those old sad white trees a  much darker complexion.

[Emo Targaryen]

I wonder whether Ned "exiling Jorah for selling some poachers into slavery" Stark knew about the Umbers still practicing "First Night"...

Reek, Roose and Ramsay make a formidable trio. They've all committed undisputedly evil acts, even though two of them have also showed some likable traits throughout the books. I'm sure one of them will get backstabbed by another one during the book, and I don't care who bites it, because they all did enough to deserve it.

[Lawrence Lawson]

I feel for Reek...and that speaks to the power of GRRM's writing.

[The Oncoming Storm]

I just want to give poor Reek a hug.

Also, I fear Ramsay would kill his father sooner or later. Roose is not an angel either but he's the Even Evil Has Standards trope.

[RICKON4KING!!]

Ramsay and Roose should really get their own sitcom. Daddy Bolton to son Bolton: "Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before I rue the day I raped your mother." *Cue laugh track*

[limbstan]

Andhaira, on 16 July 2011 - 09:15 AM, said:

A fantastic chapter! Finally, after so many years we get up and close with Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort and Warden of the North.

I loved the bit of history we got of Roose and of Domeric. Is it just me or does Domeric sound like a rather likeable fellow, completely unlike a Bolton?

Anyhow, one thing I really disliked was the fact that Roose Bolton committed a rape. That is really out of character IMO. I mean, Roose is a cultured fellow. He likes Hippocras, for crying out loud, instead of ale. He should be above such base impulses.

But anyway, I liek the tension between him and Ramsay, though I kinda felt sorry for Roose, him knowing that all his trueborn sons will be killed by his bastard. Why is he so against boy Lords anyway? Is it because of Robb, that Robb was a boy Lord and got his House wiped out due in part to his boyhood foolishness?

But Ned Stark was also scarcely a boy when he took up arms against the Mad King, and his house prospered as a result.

I hope there are many more such moments with Roose in this book.

I refuse to have any sympathy for the guy who shoved a sword through Robb's back at his uncle's wedding.  Rape out of character?  Are you kidding?

[malarky1231]

limbstan, on 20 July 2011 - 03:37 PM, said:

I refuse to have any sympathy for the guy who shoved a sword through Robb's back at his uncle's wedding.  Rape out of character?  Are you kidding?

What he means is that rape is beneath him, while betrayal and cruelty aren't. From what we've seen before this point, Roose seemed like someone who was cunning, cold, and cruel. He's never been described as savage or given to his desires. I always thought he was too cold and restrained, kind of like Stannis and Tarly, except more evil. I guess this chapter changes everything and says that yes, Roose really does have the capacity to lust, as far-fetched as that may seem.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The only one who can turn Reek back is Asha, in my opinion.  She will convince Stannis to help free Theon from Roose.

Until then...  poor poor Theon.

Also, Roose Bolton is a cold, sick bastard.  I'd say the bottom 1% of humanity.  But Ramsey Bolton is like if you took 100 Roose's, and then picked the worst of those.  Yuck.

[witless chum]

Bolton family values, egad.

[Completely Headless Ned]

Ramsay's like if you had Roose times 10.  Roose seems to have at least some sort of standards, while not much since he's a bastard, while Ramsay's just pure evil. Also man Theon's life sucks. I can't say he doesn't deserve a lot of it, but if it came down to him vs Bolton(either one) I'd go with Theon.

[Nebiros]

RICKON4KING!!, on 20 July 2011 - 04:30 AM, said:

Ramsay and Roose should really get their own sitcom. Daddy Bolton to son Bolton: "Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before I rue the day I raped your mother." *Cue laugh track*

Sure! Why not? I already made a title card for it.

The Boltons

(Pic copyrights: The Dreadfort © Fantasy Flight; The Waltons © Warner Bros.)

Will be a blast!

[JD44Irish]

I'm loving the insight into the Boltons.  I consider the Boltons along the lines of some of the greatest losers in history.  By that I mean great leaders who ended up on the wrong side of history, i.e: Hannibal and Robert E. Lee.  Though those two seem to have had more honor than Roose Bolton, who appears Lincoln-esque compared to Ramsay.

Though why should I presume they'll lose?  They have the Karstarks and a ton of their own men.  Although Manderly says he has the most horsemen.  

Is there any chance Roose Bolton survives the series and is still a lord?  Ramsay has to go, but could Roose parlay his death into a pardon?

[wolverine]

Emo Targaryen, on 19 July 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm sure one of them will get backstabbed by another one during the book, and I don't care who bites it, because they all did enough to deserve it.

I care.  Roose is very cruel, calculating, and easily hated but his evil pales in comparison to Ramsay.  Ramsay is monstrously evil.  Most of the cruel things Roose does can be explained or reasoned, Ramsay does much crueler things just for his own pleasure.