88 replies to this topic

[Glyndwr]

After reading the latest Theon/Reek offering Im beginning to feel a bit sorry for him.
He began in trying to be the son his father wanted & then it all descended into chaos for him.
I get a real "Gollum" vibe when Im reading about Reek.
Its a credit to Martins writing that from book to book you can go through so many emotions for different characters because at one point I just wanted Theon to die horribly but now I know his fate has been worse I kinda want him to redeem himself....

[wolverine]

Glyndwr, on 25 July 2011 - 08:45 AM, said:

Its a credit to Martins writing that from book to book you can go through so many emotions for different characters because at one point I just wanted Theon to die horribly but now I know his fate has been worse I kinda want him to redeem himself....

What Theon did was bad, but it seems to me that everyone forgets that Theon originally never wanted to betray the Starks.  The plan he brought and supported to his father was to help Robb.  So who was he supposed to listen to his father and his people or the son of the Lord who held him captive for 10 years?  We all hate Theon cuz he is a perv and went back to his people instead of supporting the most one of the most likeable families in the book.  And yes he did let the biggest monster in the north convince him to kill a couple young boys to pose as the Stark boys, but it sounds like every knight on both sides of the conflict in the Riverlands has done worse than that.

Edited by wolverine, 25 July 2011 - 09:05 AM.

[witless chum]

wolverine, on 25 July 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

What Theon did was bad, but it seems to me that everyone forgets that Theon originally never wanted to betray the Starks.  The plan he brought and supported to his father was to help Robb.  So who was he supposed to listen to his father and his people or the son of the Lord who held him captive for 10 years?  We all hate Theon cuz he is a perv and went back to his people instead of supporting the most one of the most likeable families in the book.  And yes he did let the biggest monster in the north convince him to kill a couple young boys to pose as the Stark boys, but it sounds like every knight on both sides of the conflict in the Riverlands has done worse than that.

Theon's biggest quality is that he's weak and craves approbation from the strong. He is also a bully to those weaker. That's driven him from foolishness to monstrosity. He's the perfect meat for a cruelty-hungry type like Ramsay, so I've got to pity the poor bastard. A little bit, at least.

[FuliginEyes]

Absolutely loved this chapter. Cannot wait until the next Reek POV... argh... *resisting the urge to read ahead*

As far as Roose Bolton goes, I think that yes, while he is less sadistically-minded than Ramsay, he is by no means less *evil* or dangerous. Many 'psychopaths' can seem quite charming and sympathetic when it serves their own ends. He is only interested in Theon as far as he has use for him.

The intelligence and self-control that he has (especially in contrast with his bastard son) makes him so much more imposing, more threatening. Cannot wait to read what will happen next.

stevelabny, on 14 July 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

So, from his line about missing some fingers, some toes, and the other thing to being petrified of being undressed...

is Theon a eunuch now?

Think so

Loras, on 14 July 2011 - 01:21 PM, said:

The Roose/Ramsay conversation was filled with a loathing that we haven't really achieved in the book before.  These two men need each other but they hate each other.  When Roose says that he wished he hadn't raped Ramsay's mother, my stomach turned a little bit.

Yep, mine too..

Rhaegar, on 16 July 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

Actually felt quite embarrassed at the noise I made when I read "If she pops out sons like she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons" - what a line!  Roose Bolton is a great character, although he seems very conflicted- how can he sympathise with Theon and detest Ramsay so much when he has no issues with the Freys or his involvement in the Red Wedding?  I get that if you flay people you're probably not a gentle soul but he also seems so laid back- he clearly knows Manderly is up to something and doesn't know how many of his bannermen are aligning with White Harbor, but doesn't seem terribly worried about it all- he almost seems like he understands their move and thinks it's justified?  At the very least, he doesn't seem to begrudge them the fact that they all can't be trusted.

That was such a great line.

I think it's not so much about him not begrudging them the fact that they can't be trusted, but more so about the self-control and cold cunning that he has. Maybe he's not really worried at all.

malarky1231, on 20 July 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

What he means is that rape is beneath him, while betrayal and cruelty aren't. From what we've seen before this point, Roose seemed like someone who was cunning, cold, and cruel. He's never been described as savage or given to his desires. I always thought he was too cold and restrained, kind of like Stannis and Tarly, except more evil. I guess this chapter changes everything and says that yes, Roose really does have the capacity to lust, as far-fetched as that may seem.

I think he was still cunning, cold, and cruel even in lust. Don't think he let his lust or desires torture him or keep him up at night - he wanted her, so he hung the husband and took her. All part of the 'law' of the land as he sees it. Probably coldly executed also.

[PetrusOctavianus]

I wonder what Roose Bolton's plans really are?
He suspects Ramsay killed his trueborn son, but does nothing. He says of Ramsay "Does he truly think that can ever rule the north?". Then later he says of the sons Fat Walda will pop out: "Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see ny new sons to manhood"

How does all this add up? Surely Bolton is not that old?

Stark Swordsman, on 14 July 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

This chapter has me suspecting that Roose might have figured Arya out. The m'lord/my lord distinction matters and having looked at some Arya ACOK chapters, she addresses him as "my lord". Roose would have been cunning enough to solve what missing highborn girl would have fit her description. He likely didn't do anything so as to keep his prize if he needed her, without letting anyone else know about her.

But it was Roose Bolton who told "Nan" to calle him "My Lord".

[I'm Unsullied]

I too was puzzled about his resignation that Ramsay would kill any new kids that he would birth.  If that's going to happen (and we know it would), then why does he still let Ramsay stay around?  Is there something about Ramsay that makes Roose and his plans unattainable if he's removed from the equation?  Something else is going on here between these two, though I have not a clue what it is.

[King_In_The_North]

It seems many people here like Roose after that chapter. I don't understand this. If anything, now that we know he has violated the law and killed some men so he could rape a girl makes him way more evil. And the way he is bsaically says "Ramsay will murder my shildren. Oh, well, whatever. I guess it's for the best." WTF?! That's a twisted person right there. Not to mention that he's a traitor...

[nya across the narrow sea]

King_In_The_North, on 11 August 2011 - 09:18 AM, said:

It seems many people here like Roose after that chapter. I don't understand this. If anything, now that we know he has violated the law and killed some men so he could rape a girl makes him way more evil. And the way he is bsaically says "Ramsay will murder my shildren. Oh, well, whatever. I guess it's for the best." WTF?! That's a twisted person right there. Not to mention that he's a traitor...

Yeah, I don't get the "Roose isn't such a bad guy after all" attitude, either. In his talk with Ramsay, it was like Hannibal Lecter talking to Jason Voorhees - they are both monsters, it's just that one of them is more discreet about it. Roose does seem to dislike Ramsay, but it certainly isn't because he thinks Ramsay's psychopathic tendencies are wrong. In fact, he explicitly states that he doesn't care about the serial killer stuff; he's just bothered because Ramsay isn't more discreet about it. And he also never said he regretted raping Ramsay's mother. He just says that Ramsay's actions are almost enough to make him regret it - which implies that he doesn't, and the only reason he would ever regret raping her is because he got such a troublesome son out of it, not you know, because rape is wrong. Roose is a just a psychopath of another color.

As for the rest, I loved the backstory we got about Ramsay, Domeric and the original Reek. What was the original Reek to Roose Bolton? Just a smelly servant? But it seems he must have had SOME status in the Bolton household, since he was allowed to bathe three times a day (it seems like a bath would be a luxury afforded only to those with high status, surely peasant servants around the household would not be able to get regular bath access.)

I hope the next chapter will reveal why Roose wanted to take Theon along with him. What purpose does he need Theon and only Theon to serve?

[Lady Snark]

While superbly written, it is very difficult to read the Reek chapters.  I have the pit in my stomach as I read them; I feel so much sympathy for poor misguided Theon.

[SerShakey]

malarky1231, on 15 July 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Roose Bolton is still a cruel and harsh ruler. Nothing changes, both need to get whacked. It's only a matter of time before Ramsay buys the farm

I hope he gets flayed and chewed-up by a wheat thrasher after buying that farm  

[Tammy]

I think it's  clear indication that poor Reek has lost a part he considered quite essential.

A friend once told me that there were no purely evil or purely good characters in this series.  I'm going to call shenanigans on that because I can't imagine anyone looking at Ramsay and claiming he is anything but pure evil.

[Lady Snark]

Tammy, on 21 August 2011 - 11:20 PM, said:

I think it's  clear indication that poor Reek has lost a part he considered quite essential.

A friend once told me that there were no purely evil or purely good characters in this series.  I'm going to call shenanigans on that because I can't imagine anyone looking at Ramsay and claiming he is anything but pure evil.

  For me, there are quite a few "purely evil" characters:  Ramsay Bolton, Joffrey, Gregor Clegane, Biter.  And Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are pretty close to purely evil.  Roose knowing what his bastard is and turning a blind eye is just so wrong.  

[SeanF]

Roose comes across to me as being rather jaded.

He knows that, regardless of the outcome of this war, House Bolton is finished. He clearly dislikes Ramsay, would probably kill him without compunction, regards him as unfit to rule, but has no legitimate adult heir, who could take his place.  Roose knows that if Ramsay survives to inherit, he'll destroy House Bolton.

[Karo Vyrga]

Please refresh my memory, why was Ramsay with Osha when they were caught in the Wolfswood by Robb and Theon? Theon's treatment of Ramsay in Winterfell might explain his, "gulp", gelding; such a pitty, he seemed to be the horniest guy in Winterfell. Now that I think about it, who's side is Osha on?

I love how this series seems to take many situations straight from today's headlines. I don't think Roose is worse than anyone else in Westeros.  He lives for today, by the guidance of the past, in hopes for a more prosperous future for his bloodline. He bid his time to make his move if the opportunity arose in his lifetime and it did. We know of their history with the Starks so its no surprise that he jumped at the chance to betray Robb and be awarded warden of the north. Of the northern houses, the Boltons would have benefited the least if the Starks would have restored their royal claim to the north.

As far as Theon is concerned, his traits stem from his upbringing. Lord Balon was right when he called him weak. Lord Ned had no interest in raising Theon to be a strong leader, which somehow comes back to bite house Stark because a smart Theon would have known he wouldn't be able to hold Winterfell without his fathers support which he didn't have to begin with.

[Karo Vyrga]

SeanF, on 24 August 2011 - 05:30 AM, said:

Roose comes across to me as being rather jaded.

He knows that, regardless of the outcome of this war, House Bolton is finished. He clearly dislikes Ramsay, would probably kill him without compunction, regards him as unfit to rule, but has no legitimate adult heir, who could take his place.  Roose knows that if Ramsay survives to inherit, he'll destroy House Bolton.

He's jaded but Ramsay is the only opportunity he has to carry the name, how small that chance might be.

[Tammy]

Karo Vyrga, on 31 August 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

Please refresh my memory, why was Ramsay with Osha when they were caught in the Wolfswood by Robb and Theon? Theon's treatment of Ramsay in Winterfell might explain his, "gulp", gelding; such a pitty, he seemed to be the horniest guy in Winterfell. Now that I think about it, who's side is Osha on?

I love how this series seems to take many situations straight from today's headlines. I don't think Roose is worse than anyone else in Westeros.  He lives for today, by the guidance of the past, in hopes for a more prosperous future for his bloodline. He bid his time to make his move if the opportunity arose in his lifetime and it did. We know of their history with the Starks so its no surprise that he jumped at the chance to betray Robb and be awarded warden of the north. Of the northern houses, the Boltons would have benefited the least if the Starks would have restored their royal claim to the north.

As far as Theon is concerned, his traits stem from his upbringing. Lord Balon was right when he called him weak. Lord Ned had no interest in raising Theon to be a strong leader, which somehow comes back to bite house Stark because a smart Theon would have known he wouldn't be able to hold Winterfell without his fathers support which he didn't have to begin with.

Ramsay wasn't with Osha that day.  Osha was the only one to survive that incident; the other two were NW deserters IIRC.  I think Ramsay came to Winterfell during ACoK when they were receiving various visitors.

[Tammy]

Karo Vyrga, on 31 August 2011 - 07:47 PM, said:

He's jaded but Ramsay is the only opportunity he has to carry the name, how small that chance might be.

I don't think he even believes that Ramsay will carry on the name, and he doesn't seem to care...as long as he doesn't cause him trouble while he's alive that is.

[Queensmoot]

I thought Ser Roderick brought "Reek" to Winterfell after the Lady Hornwood incident to stand witness to what "Ramsey" has done there, but I could be completely wrong.

I just want Theon to do to Ramsey what Arya did to the Tickler. That would be sweet. I'd also like to see Arya Faceless-Girl Roose to 7 hells.

[Spidey]

Stark Swordsman, on 14 July 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

This chapter has me suspecting that Roose might have figured Arya out.

It is entirely possible. As far as I remember, Tywin even expected Roose to see through the ruse (heh) but was sure he wouldn't care.

[Wise Westerosi]

Queensmoot, on 09 September 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

I thought Ser Roderick brought "Reek" to Winterfell after the Lady Hornwood incident to stand witness to what "Ramsey" has done there, but I could be completely wrong.

You are right about that.  Of course no one knew that "Reek" was actually Ramsey until he defeat Ser Rodric and his men outside Winterfell, entered the castle, revealed his true identity to Theon and then put the ironmen to the sword, and the castle to the torch.