[ADwD Spoilers] Regarding Elia and Rhaegar

[Skywarpgold]

Perhaps this wasn't a revelation to all, but I was struck by the descriptions of Elia and Rhaegar, and their relationship throughout Dance. Particularly, at how extremely ill Elia was by the time King's Landing was sacked. It also seems that Rhaegar never had any feelings for Elia whatsoever, which I did not pick up on before.

I'm fascinated that even five books in, we are still getting new perspectives on Robert's Rebellion and the events leading up to it. Especially how it affected everyone involved.

[BookBitten]

It also seems that Rhaegar never had any feelings for Elia whatsoever, which I did not pick up on before.

Not necessarily true, in ADWD we are told that he was "fond" of his young bride. Although the fact that he so publicly ran off with the Stark is super gross.

[Ygritte]

Not necessarily true, in ADWD we are told that he was "fond" of his young bride. Although the fact that he so publicly ran off with the Stark is super gross.

So much of that depends on what actually transpired between the two--stuff we don't really know yet. Between Rhaegar's prophecy/needing 3 kids obsession and Elia being from the same family that produced Oberyn, they might have had a rather unconventional relationship. ;)

(My hypothetical scenario involves Elia figuring out she couldn't have any more kids and giving her blessing to a second union, while not being as happy about it as she pretended, and Rhaegar being a bit of a singleminded dick and not looking below the surface of the permission. Still not terrific, but not the worst scenario either.)

[Craster's Son]

Super gross why? He was probably betrothed to Elia by his father, who seemed to mistrust him anyway, and for all we know he actually loved Lyanna.

[Calico]

Humiliating your wife in front of basically their entire nobility of Westeros, whether you wanted to marry her or not, is still a dick move. Particularly if he was "fond" of her. It's also probably wishful thinking to say that Rhaegar and Elia had an open relationship...it's too clean for Martin, and a poor hand-wave for Rhaegar's actions. Rhaegar probably did whatever he thought was necessary, whether Elia approved it or not. Or why else hide in a tower for months?

[Ygritte]

Humiliating your wife in front of basically their entire nobility of Westeros, whether you wanted to marry her or not, is still a dick move. Particularly if he was "fond" of her. It's also probably wishful thinking to say that Rhaegar and Elia had an open relationship...it's too clean for Martin, and a poor hand-wave for Rhaegar's actions. Rhaegar probably did whatever he thought was necessary, whether Elia approved it or not. Or why else hide in a tower for months?

Well, I did say he was being a dick. ;)

I think he was hiding himself and Lyanna from Aerys, though, for reasons yet to be disclosed, and for whatever reason it was believed that the Aerys situation would be dangerous to Lyanna but not to Elia.

[Dragonfish]

Not necessarily true, in ADWD we are told that he was "fond" of his young bride.

It's important to look at the context of that quote, though. I believe Barristan is asked in that scene if Rhaegar married out of love or out of duty. The fact that Barristan says Rhaegar was "fond" of her, rather than saying he loved her, indicates to me that he was hedging a little bit.

Humiliating your wife in front of basically their entire nobility of Westeros, whether you wanted to marry her or not, is still a dick move. Particularly if he was "fond" of her.

Context matters. Before we knew the full motivation behind Jaime killing Aerys, we all thought he was a huge dick for breaking his vows. Perhaps when we learn the true motivation for Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, we'll think a bit more highly of him. (Just as an example, I personally believe that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because he knew she was the KotLT, and he was simply giving her the prize she ought to have won had she continued in the joust.)

Rhaegar probably did whatever he thought was necessary, whether Elia approved it or not. Or why else hide in a tower for months?

IMO, they were hiding from their respective families until things settled down. Turned out to be a terrible idea in hindsight, obviously.

[Ygritte]

Context matters. Before we knew the full motivation behind Jaime killing Aerys, we all thought he was a huge dick for breaking his vows. Perhaps when we learn the true motivation for Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna, we'll think a bit more highly of him. (Just as an example, I personally believe that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because he knew she was the KotLT, and he was simply giving her the prize she ought to have won had she continued in the joust.)

I like this theory too. And he couldn't even announce her publicly as the KotLT, as Aerys had expressed hostility toward the disguised knight. He'd have been setting her up to become Lyanna BBQ. The crown of love and beauty was the only way to recognize her. Publicly, but with the reason disguised. I don't think they actually started a relationship until later.

[Marvin]

Rhaegar knew the prophecy of the prince that was promised. He thought that he needed three children to fulfill it ( "the dragon has three heads") and Elia wasn't likely to survive another pregnancy. All that was known from the earlier books. There probably is no justification for the public humiliation of Elia and the "abduction" of Lyanna but knights are supposed to passionate as well as valiant. Think of that knight in Arturial legend who had an affair with the queen, IIRC it was Lancelot. Can't have a good tragedy without that sort of thing.

[Sksmith]

I thought Rhaegar was a dick. He humiliates his wife, starts a war by running off with another guy’s fiance, abandons his wife and kids, locks the new woman in a tower in the middle of nowhere and she ends up dying there while his wife and kids die in King’s Landing. For all the talk of how noble he was by guys like Selmy and Connington, I kind of can see how Robert and Ned would want to kick his ass.

I really look forward to the whole story of those events. I wouldn’t be shocked to see Rhaegar run off with Lyanna, she decides its a bad idea and wants to go home and he locks her up in the tower to serve as his second wife/bearer of his third kid. From her description, it doesn’t seem like Lyanna Stark would have just run off and forgotten about her family. And the way Rhaegar’s dad murders her brother and dad, you can’t think a Stark would sit on her hands and just nod and say “Oh, your daddy is so wacky.”. She’d probably have wanted to kill the old bastard,too.

[BookBitten]

I know, that's why I put "not necessarily" instead of 'he loved her so much guys!' lol.

Also . . . polygamy legal in Westeros? If Aegon could do it, is it still legal? In which case, could Rhaegar have been trying to crete a new 'sister wife' lol, so to speak, in Lyanna? Marry them both to create three children? In which case, what he did isn't so terrible. Could that be one of the 'changes' he spoke to Jamie about???

[Dragonfish]

I thought Rhaegar was a dick. He humiliates his wife, starts a war by running off with another guy’s fiance, abandons his wife and kids, locks the new woman in a tower in the middle of nowhere and she ends up dying there while his wife and kids die in King’s Landing. For all the talk of how noble he was by guys like Selmy and Connington, I kind of can see how Robert and Ned would want to kick his ass.

I really look forward to the whole story of those events. I wouldn’t be shocked to see Rhaegar run off with Lyanna, she decides its a bad idea and wants to go home and he locks her up in the tower to serve as his second wife/bearer of his third kid. From her description, it doesn’t seem like Lyanna Stark would have just run off and forgotten about her family. And the way Rhaegar’s dad murders her brother and dad, you can’t think a Stark would sit on her hands and just nod and say “Oh, your daddy is so wacky.”. She’d probably have wanted to kill the old bastard,too.

First of all, I'm not sure where you're getting that Rhaegar locked her in the tower, we have no evidence for that.

Second of all, it may have been a while before Rhaegar and Lyanna found out about Brandon and Rickard being killed, at which point it was really too late to stop the war.

Third of all, yes he leaves his wife, but I think it's clear that he never loved her in the first place and only married her out of duty. And it's not like he was leaving her forever or something.

I know, that's why I put "not necessarily" instead of 'he loved her so much guys!' lol.

Also . . . polygamy legal in Westeros? If Aegon could do it, is it still legal? In which case, could Rhaegar have been trying to crete a new 'sister wife' lol, so to speak, in Lyanna? Marry them both to create three children? In which case, what he did isn't so terrible. Could that be one of the 'changes' he spoke to Jamie about???

Maegor also practiced polygamy, so it wasn't just Aegon. As for whether or not it's legal today, my guess would be "technically yes," but it would still be a bitter pill for the rest of Westeros to swallow, especially since the Targaryens no longer have their dragons to make them accept it.

[Karayom]

Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna to have the third child to fulfill the "three heads of the dragon" prophecy. In ADWD we find out Elia was bedridden for a year after giving birth to Aegon, and the maesters told Rhaegar she would bear no more children. Leaving his wife was a pretty dick move, but we know how obsessed he was with the PtwP prophecy. He probably thought he had no other choice but be unfaithful to Elia and was saving the world by taking Lyanna with him.

[lokisnow]

Everyone assumes that Rhaegar just ran off with Lyanna.

No one ever considers that he may have consulted with Elia about it first. In some current plural marraiges the senior wife needs to assent to her husband taking a Jr. wife.

It may even have been Elia's idea.

But we write Elia out of history because she was just a woman and who would ever stop to wonder what a woman's reaction was and what her role in the entire incident was? Men abduct, men abandon women, men are dicks, its really just that simple. Nothing more than youthful sowing of his wild oats as we would expect Rhaegar to do from what we know of his character, right?

We shouldn't just assume that Rhaegar just did what he did cause he was rash and desperate to fulfill a prophecy, there is probably much and more to it. And it would seem that if Rhaegar and Elia knew they could have no more children, the Targaryen custom of multiple spouses might just be revived.

Lyanna figured that hey, becoming a princess would be worth breaking a betrothal to someone she despised, and by becoming a princess her lord-betrothed would just have to eat it and stew (be punished) while she laughed all the way to the bank. I imagine that her family did not find out about her decision the way she intended them to and instead of seeing her as marrying Rhaegar before leaving with him they believe she was abducted and carried off.

Presuming Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna or just cast his wife aside makes about as much sense as presuming that Rhaegar is Dany's father as well. :P

[Marvin]

I know, that's why I put "not necessarily" instead of 'he loved her so much guys!' lol.

Also . . . polygamy legal in Westeros? If Aegon could do it, is it still legal? In which case, could Rhaegar have been trying to crete a new 'sister wife' lol, so to speak, in Lyanna? Marry them both to create three children? In which case, what he did isn't so terrible. Could that be one of the 'changes' he spoke to Jamie about???

The Targs were above the rules, or at least they used to get away with breaking them. Their incestuous marriages weren't really in line with the Faith's teaching either. A second marriage may have caused trouble but Rhaegar should have been able to deal with it once he was regent.

[corbon]

I thought Rhaegar was a dick. He humiliates his wife, starts a war by running off with another guy’s fiance, abandons his wife and kids, locks the new woman in a tower in the middle of nowhere and she ends up dying there while his wife and kids die in King’s Landing. For all the talk of how noble he was by guys like Selmy and Connington, I kind of can see how Robert and Ned would want to kick his ass.

Yep.

And Jaime is the treacherous, oathsworn, kingslayer who murdered poor Aerys.

And Good King Robert has three fine true-born children and a loyal wife.

:rolleyes:

[The Stranger]

Everyone assumes etc etc empowerment etc

Rhaegar, to our knowledge, was a young convert to an apocalypse cult. there's zero indication his wife felt similarly.

[aktarian]

Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna to have the third child to fulfill the "three heads of the dragon" prophecy. In ADWD we find out Elia was bedridden for a year after giving birth to Aegon, and the maesters told Rhaegar she would bear no more children. Leaving his wife was a pretty dick move, but we know how obsessed he was with the PtwP prophecy. He probably thought he had no other choice but be unfaithful to Elia and was saving the world by taking Lyanna with him.

I think this was one of the most important parts of ADWD since we see Rhaegar didn't take off with Lyanna just because he was a prince and could do whatever he wanted but there were other reasons for it. Sure, it was a dick move and could have been handled more discreetly, but at least it's not just Rhaegar doing whatever he wanted.

As others said, it's like seeing Jaimie's story why he killed Aerys. Yes, it's still a dick move, breaking wows etc but there is a difference between doing it to prevent KL being torched with thousands getting killed and doing it because your family is backing uprising.

[cteresa]

Keep in mind Connington was in love with Rhaegar, and it sounded to me like he was jealous of Elia. So take his opinions on that relationship with a grain of salt.

[Maia]

I thought Rhaegar was a dick. He humiliates his wife, starts a war by running off with another guy's fiance,

A true dick would have rid himself of a sick wife by impregnating her yet again and killing her thereby. Nor did he start a war - Brandon and Aerys did that. If either of them had reacted more sensibly, there wouldn't have been a war.

As to Robert - come on! He is the guy who bedded a noble maiden in his brother's wedding bed, during his brother's marriage feast. He absolutely would have done the same as Rhaegar if opportunity presented itself - and without any great love/prophecies to motivate him either, but just to scratch an itch. His vassals just knew to keep their daughters away from him, that's all. Robert, of all people, doesn't get to claim any moral high ground.