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[ADwD Spoilers] Updating the Citadel


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#1 Linda

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:15 PM

Now that the new book has been devoured comes the next phase for myself and Ran: updating the Citadel. This time around, we thought we'd solicit a little bit of input to make sure we didn't miss any crucial updates.

CONCORDANCE: Updated through AFfC and parts of TMK. There's not really much input needed for this, its just a matter of Ran going page-by-page.

FAQ: Which sections need to be updated and do we need to add any? I've already noted down the following for updating (and possibly removal in some cases):

What happened at Summerhall?, What happened when during Robertís Rebellion?, Is Aegon Dead?, Is Davos Dead? (possibly remove altogether), Is Gregor Dead?, Is Brienne Dead? (possibly remove altogether), Who are Jon Snowís parents? Who is the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai reborn? Who is Coldhands? Who is the false Arya?

For additions, I am thinking a "who am I" for the knight that Queen Rhaella had a thing for. I know we also asked in the past about collecting the various homages, and we'll try to get that in as a topic too, so any new ones from ADwD would go there.

HERALDRY: The summaries of house histories and current events for houses & house members are lagging a bit behind, but Ran will try to do all the remaining updates in one go for each house. As with the Concordance, not really possible with any input until he's gone through it once.

PROPHECIES: We've already started adding in prophecies from ADwD, but take a look at the page in a day or two and see if we've missed any. We're also going back and adding D&E prophecies.

#2 Maltaran

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

I started a thread for the homages here. So far, it seems all we have is another one for Roger Zelazny, and a couple of Monty Python gags.

As for the questions, "What is the Doom of Valyria" can be added to the update list. Possibly update the "Who is PtwP/AA" and "Who is KotLT" as well.

#3 WaitingforWylla

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:06 PM

Now that the new book has been devoured comes the next phase for myself and Ran: updating the Citadel. This time around, we thought we'd solicit a little bit of input to make sure we didn't miss any crucial updates.


Can I just take a moment to say thank you to you and Ran for all the effort you've put in to this? Thanks so much!!

#4 Linda

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:34 PM

Can I just take a moment to say thank you to you and Ran for all the effort you've put in to this? Thanks so much!!


And thank you. :)

Alright, so far we've put in all the dreams and visions we've found from ADwD. If anyone comes across any now missing from the listing on the Prophecies page, do post here.

We have yet to go through the Prophecies to add new evidence to older ones, however.

#5 Maltaran

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:49 PM

Moqorro's prophcy about th Kraken - since it has only one eye, I suspect it's Euron rather than Victarion.

#6 Galen M

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:05 AM

I think we need to add a few more are they dead questions. Martin loves to toy with us, and his favorite toy is the false death scene.

#7 CryHavoc

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 12:07 PM

Would it be possible to put Bran's visions of the past and what they correspond to somewhere (for the ones we know)? It's not really "prophecy" per say, but it's interesting.

#8 WaitingforWylla

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 04:58 PM

Alright, so far we've put in all the dreams and visions we've found from ADwD. If anyone comes across any now missing from the listing on the Prophecies page, do post here.


Maybe add a separate "Who/Where is Wylla?" question? We've got several theories on that (She's a Dornish wet nurse! She's a northern fisherwoman! She's someone else, with a confused cover story!) that it might be good to have it all in one place.

#9 Arataniello

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:19 PM

Any references to the Targaryen family tree need to be updated with Aemond, brother of Aegon II, and the three sons of Aegon V. Plus anything else that I have not yet come across in a DwD.

#10 Bishop Cruz

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 12:57 PM

Would it be possible to put Bran's visions of the past and what they correspond to somewhere (for the ones we know)? It's not really "prophecy" per say, but it's interesting.


First post, so hey all.

Just thinking it might be a good idea to update Bran's vision from AGOT. His images of the man in stone armor with a shadow for a head, and the dead Jon Snow seem to have very specific analogues now.

Edit: The bones at the end too have an eerie similarity to the cave with Bloodraven. Pretty much his entire dream from AGOT gets clarified this book.

Edited by Bishop Cruz, 15 July 2011 - 01:01 PM.


#11 Reyne

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:55 PM

And thank you. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Alright, so far we've put in all the dreams and visions we've found from ADwD. If anyone comes across any now missing from the listing on the Prophecies page, do post here.

We have yet to go through the Prophecies to add new evidence to older ones, however.


Patchface had some (possible) prophecies in ADWD, though I can't really find them now. Also, Melisandre thought Patchface was dangerous (another prophecy of sorts.)

#12 Linda

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 05:40 AM

Good suggestions, all. Bran's visions of the past can go into the FAQ, much like Meera and Jojen's story of Harrenhal.

And yes, we will be going over and updating "answered" prophecies as well. :)

#13 RobMRobM

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:46 AM

What are we going to do with Selmy's discussion that Aerys' true love was Tywin's wife? Is this heading towards confirm of the Tyrion is hidden Targ theory?

More importantly, probably a good idea to add a new discussion of the Quentyn/Plumm factor - that having Targ blood is important to having dragons like you. This, frankly, shocked me as I thought it would take Tyrion out of play for his obvious role as a dragon rider unless the paragraph one theory comes into play.

Also, relatedly, Dany again survived getting burned by fire and there is internal dialogue she should have been fried and was not. Perhaps add text re whether there is a real Targaryan blood fire resistance factor (as opposed to the one time magical events at end of AGOT)?

We also need the "who is the three eyed crow" discussion. How old is Brynden? Is he a Stark? Etc.

#14 RobMRobM

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 09:48 AM

Also, someone needs to cover the Quaithe communication re Dany re all the people coming to Mereen. I have some but not all. And who is the freaking mummer's dragon - I thought it was Aegon but maybe he's the real thing. Was it Quentyn - but I thought he was separately named.

#15 Galen M

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 12:07 PM

Also, someone needs to cover the Quaithe communication re Dany re all the people coming to Mereen. I have some but not all. And who is the freaking mummer's dragon - I thought it was Aegon but maybe he's the real thing. Was it Quentyn - but I thought he was separately named.


Quentyn was the Sun's son. Varys was a mummer, so the Mummer's Dragon could be a Targaryen that was controlled by Varys.

#16 Claireducky

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Posted 16 July 2011 - 03:05 PM

I've got a run down of Bran's visions in this thread, if it is helpful:

http://asoiaf.wester...what-bran-sees/

#17 Reyne

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:09 AM

Good suggestions, all. Bran's visions of the past can go into the FAQ, much like Meera and Jojen's story of Harrenhal.

And yes, we will be going over and updating "answered" prophecies as well. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Some suggestions for 'answered' prophecies:

Mirri Maz Duhr's prophecy:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

This is possibly coming true.
Sun rises in west and sets in the east - Quentyn
Seas go dry - Dothraki sea is drying up (last Dany chapter.)
Mountains blow in the wind like leaves - Pyramid of Hazkar collapsed into a smoking ruin. Or, possibly, something with Gregor (don't think that's as likely; needs some sort of connection to Dany.)
Womb quickens again - it's semi-implied that the berries Dany ate in her last chapter are an abortifacient, and she miscarried as a result (can't remember having her period in ages.)


Azor Ahai prophecy (said by Melisandre)

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Possibly: Red star bleeds - the sigil of Patrek of King's Mountain
Darkness gathers - it's in the Night's Watch oath.
Smoke - from Jon's wound in the cold
Salt - Bowen Marsh's tears.

Caveat: The character's name and sigil comes from a sports bet of Martin, so it might just be a huge coincidence.

Quaithe's prophecy

No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sunís son and the mummerís dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

This might be a bit crackpot, but I don't like that mummer's dragon = Aegon, because he has absolutely no relation to Quentyn (sun's son) at all. The two don't even know that each other exist, really.

Instead, it might be that Quentyn is also the mummer's dragon, as he tries to claim dragons through his Targaryen blood, and fails for it.

#18 Wight Power

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 03:10 AM

Possibly: Red star bleeds - the sigil of Patrek of King's Mountain
Darkness gathers - it's in the Night's Watch oath.
Smoke - from Jon's wound in the cold
Salt - Bowen Marsh's tears.

Caveat: The character's name and sigil comes from a sports bet of Martin, so it might just be a huge coincidence.

Quaithe's prophecy

This might be a bit crackpot, but I don't like that mummer's dragon = Aegon, because he has absolutely no relation to Quentyn (sun's son) at all. The two don't even know that each other exist, really.

Instead, it might be that Quentyn is also the mummer's dragon, as he tries to claim dragons through his Targaryen blood, and fails for it.


I like the read of AA prophecy a lot, with the exception of smoke. I think fire still needs to be involved in some regard.

For Quaithe's prophecy I guess the other names are associated in groups, but Tyrion didn't arrive with Connington. I think that leaves room for Aegon to be a fake or Varys' (the mummer) dragon.

#19 Claireducky

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 08:40 AM

Think we need to update Dany's prophecy about the corpse standing at the prow of a ship to possibly be about Connington.

#20 AverageJon

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:50 AM

Here are some answered prophecies from the past books:
in GoT, bran has a long dreams that relates many characters. two answers that I believe we have after this book.
about the giant in armor:

Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood

we discussed in the past who this giant should be. after ADWD, I believe we can safely assume it's Robert Strong.
about Jon:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him

this certainly relates to Jon's conditions in the end of ADWD, since Jon describes how he feels the cold in the end of his last chapter. does this mean he will become a wight? we have another clue that can point up there if we count Jon's dream in Got concerning the crypts of wintefell (the one he tells Sam about) to be real.
on the other hand, we do know that Bran have pushed Jon into his first warging of Ghost (remember the dream in Cok), and it's possible Jon warged to ghost at the last moment as he was saying its name.

concerning Daenerys, we hace the house of the undying prophecy:

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

we may have witnessed her second 'ride' during her wedding feast. thought I am not sure why is it a mount to dread. also, we may have seen a second treason - her husband trying to poison her, for gold. this may point us to understand that Jorah mormont's actions were not treason.

that will do for now.