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[ADwD Spoilers] Updating the Citadel


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#21 Wight Power

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 12:27 PM

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

I think this points to Jon having to lie dead somewhere after the assassination. It suggests that he's turning into a wight, but a frozen inanimate corpse would do the same thing. He'll probably be dead dead for a while and then resurrected in some fashion. We also haven't confirmed how wights are created. There wasn't a conclusion for Jon's experiment with the corpses in the ice cells, personally I think an Other needs to do the deed.

#22 Craster's Son

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 10:45 PM

I think this points to Jon having to lie dead somewhere after the assassination. It suggests that he's turning into a wight, but a frozen inanimate corpse would do the same thing. He'll probably be dead dead for a while and then resurrected in some fashion. We also haven't confirmed how wights are created. There wasn't a conclusion for Jon's experiment with the corpses in the ice cells, personally I think an Other needs to do the deed.


Something or someone needs to reanimate Jon, certainly. Why not the children of the forest? Or Bloodraven? Or Bran, for that matter...

#23 banjaxd

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:15 AM

on another not e i read a lot about aegon being fake but remember the vision of rhaegar holding a baby saying that he was the prince that was promised and his song would be a song of ice and fire....

was aegon born at dragonstone ?...if that babe was aegon it makes sense....the dragon having 3 heads refers specifically to targaryen - so now it does - dany, aemon and aegon...all targaryen

#24 Saracen

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:36 AM

on another not e i read a lot about aegon being fake but remember the vision of rhaegar holding a baby saying that he was the prince that was promised and his song would be a song of ice and fire....

was aegon born at dragonstone ?...if that babe was aegon it makes sense....the dragon having 3 heads refers specifically to targaryen - so now it does - dany, aemon and aegon...all targaryen

Aemon is dead. Jon is likely to be the last targareyn.

#25 Arataniello

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 06:49 AM

on another not e i read a lot about aegon being fake but remember the vision of rhaegar holding a baby saying that he was the prince that was promised and his song would be a song of ice and fire....

was aegon born at dragonstone ?...if that babe was aegon it makes sense....the dragon having 3 heads refers specifically to targaryen - so now it does - dany, aemon and aegon...all targaryen


Remember that a lot of people BELIEVE that they know who the PtwP is. Maester Aemon talks about this himself in one of Sam's chapters in aFfC, how Rhaegar thought he himself was the PtwP because his 'birth criteria' fit the prophecy.

In your list of 'dany, aemon and aegon', who is this aemon of whom you speak? Maester Aemon is dead.

#26 Markus

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:18 AM

I think you may have missed one of Moqorro's visions. He says that he has seen a vision about Victarion:

"You come striding through the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, blind to the tentacles that grasp you at wrist and neck and ankle, the black strings that make you dance."

Presumably a reference to the ties which Euron (a kraken who would have tentacles) has attached to Victarion -- including the dusty woman and perhaps the maester -- which make Victarion do what Euron wants him to do without Victarion realizing it.

ETA: Though Euron may well not be the only one who pulls Victarion's strings. Moqorro himself is a possible candidate himself, so the vision might be about him too.

Edited by Markus, 19 July 2011 - 09:30 AM.


#27 FYATroll

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:41 PM

we may have witnessed her second 'ride' during her wedding feast. thought I am not sure why is it a mount to dread. also, we may have seen a second treason - her husband trying to poison her, for gold. this may point us to understand that Jorah mormont's actions were not treason.

that will do for now.


I'm going to say that the mount to dread can safely be assumed to be Drogon at the fighting pit. You know, with everyone fleeing in terror and Drogon burning people to ashes. That second mount seems to be settled.

I do like your take on Hizdhar being the second treason. Mereen, like the rest of Slaver's Bay, was never going to give up slaving. I can easily see Hizdhar making a deal with them (the Harpies) that went something like "stop the killings now, make me king, and I'll kill the Queen so you can resume slaving." Makes sense.

Now, the one prophecy that seems to have had a huge wrench thrown it is in the bride of fire prophecy. Everyone seemed to assume that the second vision was of a Grejoy and possibly now Connington. I'm just not sure on this. She did, afterall, marry Hizdhar. Hizdhar doesn't actually fit any of the descriptions though. So I think we have three choices: 1. Completely ignore Hizdhar and just maintain the course that the corpse with grey lips is either a Greyjoy or Connington. 2. Completely re-think the prophecy entirely as something other than one that represents her husbands. 3. It is actuall Hizdhar and sometime in the next book he will, in fact fit that description. Maybe he contracts the pale mare. Who knows.

I'm currently leaning towards option 3.

Finally, the mummer's dragon. All signs seem to point to this new Aegon. I have two reasons: 1. Why in the world would they ONLY save Aegon from the Red Keep and not his sister? If Rhaegar believed both children to be necessary to fulfill the prophecy, and he did, then you would think both would have been saved. Even if Varys didn't know about it, you'd STILL think he would have saved both children instead of just the one. 2. Both Varys and ILlyrio seem, at least to me, to have been relying much more on Viserys and then Dany to come back and save the realm. They gave Dany the dragon eggs. They wanted her married to Khal Drogo. They sent Aegon to Dany in hopes to bring her to Westeros. I would think, that if this boy was truly Aegon, then they would have just fine with bringing him over w/o Dany. Remember, it was never Varys' plan to have Aegon show up w/o another Targaryen. It makes me think Varys and Illyrio both doubt the boy.

I will give an alternate theory that has no basis for support, though. Aegon, in fact, is for real and he does raise his banners. In response, someone else of power in the realm seeks to counter this move by bringing up some other Targaryen, only this time a fake. My money would be on Littlefinger. I've been thinking Edric Dayne would be a good candidate to pass off as Aegon, despite his age. You can fake that stuff.

#28 Elimeny

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 05:17 PM

Thank you so much for all the information you compile. Half the joy in reading these books comes from exploring the citadel and wiki and forums to get more information.

Were it not for these resources, I probably would have given up on this series out of pure confusion! (I started with audiobooks, an it's very difficult to go back an reference things when confused, and there's no appendix!)

Great job.

#29 fybonacci

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 04:53 AM

I always thought that the prophesies of the mummer's dragon and Dany's visions in that house of the dead meant that Stannis and Melisande will succeed in waking the stone dragons.

#30 Whitney

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:09 PM

I think we need to add a few more are they dead questions. Martin loves to toy with us, and his favorite toy is the false death scene.



Yeah- I think he overuses it. I'm at the point where unless a head gets detached I just assume that the character is still (more or less) alive.

#31 Whitney

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:21 PM

Also, relatedly, Dany again survived getting burned by fire and there is internal dialogue she should have been fried and was not. Perhaps add text re whether there is a real Targaryan blood fire resistance factor (as opposed to the one time magical events at end of AGOT)?



She survived it- but I think it's important to note that Dany's hands are burned- so she's not totally immune to burning (just highly resistant).

"Her skin was pink and tender, and a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing."

also

"Dany, starved, slid off his back and ate with him, ripping chunks of smoking meat from the dead horse with bare burned hands."

#32 Whitney

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 12:45 PM

Finally, the mummer's dragon. All signs seem to point to this new Aegon. I have two reasons: 1. Why in the world would they ONLY save Aegon from the Red Keep and not his sister?


His sister was older and therefore a fake would have been more easily identifiable. Plus, being a girl, saving her was probably of lower priority.

#33 FYATroll

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:05 PM

Yeah- I think he overuses it. I'm at the point where unless a head gets detached I just assume that the character is still (more or less) alive.


Yea, for me I assume they are alive if both of these conditions are not met: 1. You have to actually see the death scene (like Quentyn) and then 2. It has to later be confirmed (again, like Quentyn). If one or the other isn't met, I assume the person is still alive.

We've seen the death scene, like Brienne, but had no confirmation. She lives.

We've seen the confirmation, like Davos, only no death scene. He lives.

#34 Inn at the Crossroads

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:59 PM

We'll be going through with a fine tooth comb for food references. You may already have them, but if we can help, we'd love to!

#35 Lord Godric

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:35 PM

on another not e i read a lot about aegon being fake but remember the vision of rhaegar holding a baby saying that he was the prince that was promised and his song would be a song of ice and fire....

was aegon born at dragonstone ?...if that babe was aegon it makes sense....the dragon having 3 heads refers specifically to targaryen - so now it does - dany, aemon and aegon...all targaryen



Aemon is dead. Jon is likely to be the last targareyn.

GRRM has also stated that the three heads of the dragon need not be a Targaryen. Which is further evidence, to me anyway, that Aegon is not a true Targaryen. My bet is still on Tyrion.

#36 Starks in the Crypt

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:30 PM

I was thinking about the epilogue and the criterion Varys lays out for a good king. He obviously has YG in mind here but I wonder if someone else will fit the bill. Not a true prophesy but something interesting anyway.

#37 SombreKnight

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:01 PM

Hello all.

I hope I am not repeating things that have been argued before but to me it seems like Quaithe's prophecy "V: 152-153: The Glass Candles" has been carefully designed to have multiple meanings to fit the various outcomes Winds of Winter seems to heading towards.

I know "sun's son" most easily fits Quentyn, however, can it also fit the Second Sons?

Sorry again if this has been mentioned elsewhere or if I am totally crazy.

Edited by SombreKnight, 21 July 2011 - 09:01 PM.


#38 Ourika

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:28 PM

Hi all--

I've been visiting these boards occasionally for several years now, but I've visited often enough during the pre-Dance days that I've finally decided to become a member. These boards are a great source of insight and speculation, and I look forward to participating a bit from now on. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Anyway, like I've seen others say, I had always assumed the grey corpse smiling sadly to be a Greyjoy, but events in Dance seem to be heading in another direction. I like the speculation that it might symbolize Connington's greyscale-- however, I also wondered if the corpse might represent Maester Aemon? He spent the voyage to Braavos staring toward the east: "Maester Aemon preferred to spend his days on deck as well, huddled beneath a pile of furs and gazing out across the water" (page 218 of my 'Feast' hardback). He would be a corpse because he was near death, and his eyes would be "bright" because of his cataracts. As for the sad smile, his last words to Sam about wanting to see Daenerys and her dragons seem wonderfully elegaic and sad.

I know the "Daughter of Death" prophecy usually is discussed in relation to Dany's three romances, which Aemon doesn't fill, but it was just a thought that had occurred to me. Sorry if this Update thread isn't be best place... it just seems as if "Dance" made Victarion/Euron, at least, a less likely possibility.

Sorry if this has been discussed before -- I tried to search the forums, but I kept getting an error message.

Thanks to everyone who's worked on the Citadel and the other compendia of resources here-- y'all are awesome. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#39 Sarella Snow

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 10:03 AM

Thank you so much for all the information you provide.

Some things I'd love to see you add:

Is Stannis dead? We know Ramsay is a liar and a manipulator, do we believe everything in his letter?

Update on Bran/Three-eyed Crow.

Update on Harrenhall with Barristan Selmy info -- Ned/Ashara and her stillborn daughter. This also lends a bit of weight to R+L=J, for which there seem to be so many clues in the Ned POV in GOT.

Thanks again!

#40 NexivRed

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 03:37 PM

Oh cool, the house of the undying prophecies have slightly changed to what I thought they meant.

I'd also like to add my theory on Mirri's answer to Dany about Drogo coming back. I believe Mirri could be prophecising either a.) Dany will die in childbirth, the child will live b.) Dany will give birth but die at some point in the books but the child will live, or just c.) Dany will die a natural death and see Drogo in heaven, but the prophecy binds her to having born at least one living child before then.

Either way, she's gonna pop out a kid. It is known.


Edit:
Another thing that struck me about a Dany prophecy, (the one where she has to go South to go North etc), could the "To go forward you must go back" be in relevance to her going back to a Khalasar? I think everyone in the books and out of the books agrees she shouldn't have stayed and been a Queen in Mereen.

Edited by NexivRed, 22 July 2011 - 03:52 PM.