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[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ghost in Winterfell / "There must ALWAYS be a Stark in Winterfell


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#41 you wouldn't know me

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:53 AM

Dont know who he is. But why write about him? Thats why I thought it must be him
The spearwives seemed pretty adamant it wasnt them

I have this fanboy dream its the Blackfish. Its not but it would be nice if it was /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />



I think I may try and delude myself that you're right because that would be epic!

#42 Yarl Snow

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:18 AM

Dont know who he is. But why write about him? Thats why I thought it must be him
The spearwives seemed pretty adamant it wasnt them

I have this fanboy dream its the Blackfish. Its not but it would be nice if it was /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


Wouldn't Theon have recognized the Blackfish?

#43 Angalin

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:32 PM

Also they are stuck in a castle that due to the blizzards means that there is ample opportunity to catch someone and murder them without any witnesses.

Yes, it's very Agatha Christie. I hate to think what the Boltons would have made of Hercule Poirot.

Wouldn't Theon have recognized the Blackfish?

The man's hood was up. I assumed it was Mance, setting up chaos for when they all tried to make their getaway. He would know Winterfell better than the Blackfish would, for instance.

#44 O'san'gar's Razor

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:37 PM

Dont know who he is. But why write about him? Thats why I thought it must be him
The spearwives seemed pretty adamant it wasnt them

I have this fanboy dream its the Blackfish. Its not but it would be nice if it was /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />


We should expect him to show up somewhere. But my money is on the Vale; had he ever been to Winterfell to our knowledge?

#45 Lord Bronn Stokeworth

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:52 PM

I think that Manderly killed Little Walder. His daughter, Wylla, was betrothed to Little Walder and I'm sure he didn't want that marriage to happen.


That is the only thing that gives me pause.

The killings were almost certainly by "Abel" to cause the ruckus to give them a chance to escape. I also suspect "Abel" was the hooded man too.

As for the Walder, the spearwives denied it and have little reason to if they did.

We seen Theon's POV, so we know he's not the killer.

So, I would guess one of Manderly's men (possibly under orders, but could simply do it on his own) or the other Walder.

#46 The Faceless Bard

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 06:53 PM

Big Walder is still alive. It was Little Walder who was killed, and quite possibly Big Walder who did the killing. Only on that murder, though - the other ones I thought it was clear that Mance's spearwives did it.


This was pretty much how I read it!

#47 MattTaz

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:03 PM

Yes, it's very Agatha Christie. I hate to think what the Boltons would have made of Hercule Poirot.


The man's hood was up. I assumed it was Mance, setting up chaos for when they all tried to make their getaway. He would know Winterfell better than the Blackfish would, for instance.


It wasnt Mance, he was laying a few riffs in the Hall at the time Theon walked out /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
Theon looked him right in the eye and thought 'is this the killer?' I have no idea who he is.
Bit strange for GRRM to write him in

#48 Angalin

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:02 PM

It wasnt Mance, he was laying a few riffs in the Hall at the time Theon walked out /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
Theon looked him right in the eye and thought 'is this the killer?' I have no idea who he is.
Bit strange for GRRM to write him in

If the Blackfish was on his way to the Wall, I suppose it could have been him but no idea how that would fit into the timeline. How long ago did he leave Riverrun and how long would it have taken him to get to Winterfell? What other characters are AWOL?

Tytos Blackwood wasn't talking one way or the other about the Blackfish, I noticed. If somehow Brynden Tully made it to White Harbor, Manderly would probably have taken him on in secret; however, some northmen would have recognized him from Robb's campaign, no?

Super-crackpot theory for the ghost of Winterfell: Benjen Stark. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

#49 kingkiller

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:09 PM

So the Freys have added kin slaying to their list of sins? I'm not sure of this. For all the flack they take, they're the only friends they've got. And wasn't Big Walder the decent one?



The Freys can hardly go to war with anyone in the entire 7 kingdoms without committing kinslaying. They are like a disease that has penetrated the genepool of Westeros.

#50 Lord Damian

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:42 PM

It was not manderly. He is biding his time. Whoever did it most likely wanted trouble between the Manderly and Frey factions.

#51 Winterborn

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 11:44 PM

Super-crackpot theory for the ghost of Winterfell: Benjen Stark. /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />


Oh, darn, you beat me to it!

#52 seppuku

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:20 AM

The person in the hood was a faceless man. That was my first thought when I read it and would explain the mysterious deaths.

One of the spearwives was probably responsible for killing/castrating Ramsay's creature though.

Edited by seppuku, 19 July 2011 - 12:21 AM.


#53 Ghost Grass

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:56 AM

The loyalty of the Northmen to the Starks, that is the ghost that will always be in Winterfell.

#54 Spilt Pea Soup

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:00 AM

"The Ghost in Winterfell" is Theon, as that's the title of the chapter, and he is the PoV. That's a strict rule, right?

He didn't commit the murders though--Abel did most likely, with the help of his wenches.

#55 Prince Regent

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:42 AM

I think Mance and the spearwives did the killings. Remember when Jon sparred with Rattleshirt/Mance at Castle Black? I don't think anyone unarmed/unaware would have a chance at surviving an attack by Mance.

Also, Abel is an anagram of Bael. Nice one, GRRM.

#56 Gomi

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:31 AM

Also, Abel is an anagram of Bael. Nice one, GRRM.

Very nice. /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#57 Early Earl

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:41 AM

1. The first murders were done without a sign of used violence. The dead were prepared to have some fun with the spearwives, not to fight. The girls admitted to them. It makes sense.

2. The "good" Walder was killed brutally. Possible killers:
- Abel: why the change of style?
- Manderly (or his man): too obvious, as for the bethroal. Also, he has bigger plans. He needs to be unsuspicious for now.
- FM: They kill, when someone really wants them to. Big payments needed. Arrangements to be made. All for the "good" Walder? Noone could or would afford several people killed by FM. Never!
- Lady Dustin: too old, too weak.
- Blackfish/ some Stark (dead or alive): crackpot. You can't proove whether it's right or wrong. possible but very unlikely.
- Ramsay: motive, means and opportunity. I think it's him. The murders are threatening the fragile peace within the castle. Someone - anyone - has to be declared guilty. It's not unheard of to blame your enemy, if noone else can be found. I'm going with this theory for now.

3. The hooded guy: he's got the humor of Abel. But so do many. Him roaming around, taking care of his girls if need be makes sense though. I think it's him, but that's what I'm least certain of.

Eta: Hercule Poirot couldn't do sh**. We need Miss Marple: cause she once knew this guy, who was a baker baking pies, so everyone thought... but everyone except her forgot about the unlawfull son of the late Lord Umber, who was supposed to have died in Dorne. But she heard Lady Dustin talk to Lady Bolton about the tapestries in the gate towers and she remembered that Dornish-weaving is much more cratfy. So, she thought, how does Lady Dustin know, if not from Umber's son? And if he's back talking to her - the murderer must be: Lord Karstark! (as he once talked of Dornish wine). Case solved!

Edited by Early Earl, 19 July 2011 - 02:49 AM.


#58 Marcus of the South

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:58 AM

I thought it was the 'bad' Walder that died.

#59 Marina

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 04:58 AM

Big Walder was smaller physically than Little Walder, and a lot less vicious - would he have been able to pull it off?

Any speculation on the hooded man? There's no way he's not important. And much as I love the idea that the Blackfish offed a Frey or two on his way to the Wall, Theon would have recognized him, right? They rode to war together and they were both in Robb's council.

#60 SFDanny

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 07:47 AM

I think it was that hooded guy striding through the snow who saw Theon and his hand went to his dagger
'how is it you still breathe' when Theon showed him his hands he laughed and said something like
i'll leave you to him'
The spearwives and Mance were only sent to rescue Arya, I think killing people would draw unwanted attention


Absolutely!

When I first read this chapter I thought the title was a reference to Theon. Then I thought it is a reference to whoever is killing the men in Winterfell, and it kind of is that. But it dawned on me that the title is quite literal. The man Theon meets is literally the GHOST in Winterfell, as in the avenging ghost of a dead king or lord (Lord Rickard?) that Theon stumbles upon. Maybe those swords in the crypts really ARE necessary.