382 replies to this topic

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

& just to clarify in my post the HM reference is the hooded man, not Hall Mollen, unless Hall Mollen turns out to be the hooded man

[Dornish Bannerman]

I think Big Walder killed the evil Little Walder.

[BrojenReed]

I think it's pretty obvious that the hooded man is Syrio Forel warging Bronn

[alienarea]

BrojenReed, on 11 June 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think it's pretty obvious that the hooded man is Syrio Forel warging Bronn

... glamoured as Davos

[Malgarroth]

I would like it to be Benjen, but I can't see him coming south of the Wall without checking in with the NW first, not after so many died simply looking for him.

Plus that shits on my Benjen is Coldhands theory.

[sunxiaohu]

I really like the thought that Theon has a split personality so severe that it even manifests itself physically. Basically, I think there are three personalities "Theon" at the most lucid, "Reek" at an intermediate stage characterized by panic and weakness, and "The Hooded Man" in states of complete non-lucidity characterized by rage and strength. Let's remember this man has been completely fractured psychologically. In his "Reek" personality, he exhibits complete submissiveness, and psychosomatic injuries to compound his real ones. Think of how damn frightened "Reek" is of every little thing. He denies his ability to do something mentally before even attempting said action. Reek just takes whatever is thrown at him and whimpers. But don't think that the psychological injuries are not remembered subconsciously. Before his trauma, Theon was never a man to be slighted, it is in his nature to hold grudges and seek revenge.

"Theon" has a more realistic understanding of his abilities, and furthermore retains the ability to project at least a small degree of power, as is seen during the incident at Moat Cailin as well as during his escape with Jeyne Poole. "Theon" is still burdened by his status and trauma, however, so he does not act on any desire for revenge or escape.

That's were "The Hooded Man" comes in. This is an outlet for Theon's psychosis. "The Hooded Man" loses all the psychosomatic injuries, loses all inhibitions and knows only bloodlust. It is only natural that Theon would be blacked out during episodes of this personality, these drives are subconscious and base. Theon's conscious personalities cannot behave this way. All of the victims we infer to have been killed by "The Hooded Man" are people who had wronged Theon greatly. GRRM implies that Theon's genitals were flayed and amputated, perhaps with the aid of Yellow Dick. Severing Dick's genitals and shoving them in his mouth indicates to me that "The Hooded Man" is taking revenge. Now, why would "The Hooded Man" not just go straight to Ramsay if he was an outlet for Theon's psychosis and revenge-seeking needs? I don't have a great answer, but I think it is probably something to do with how well protected Ramsay is at all time. Perhaps episodes of "The Hooded Man" personality only take place outside, in the snow, where even "Theon" feels more powerful because he knows his way around while others do not. Why would Theon hallucinate "The Hooded Man", then? Because Theon is becoming more and more powerful, and more and more aware of that aspect of his psyche. He is regaining weight, he is warm, he hasn't had anything amputated or removed in a long time, he can use his real name, and he is in the place he knows better than any other. This change in environment/status triggers the hallucination.

I think this also fits in well with GRRM's theme of the importance of identity (Arya, Jon Snow, etc.) This is a violent awakening to that reality, and an exploration of the wild, dangerous, and uncontrollable consequences of being forced to forget who you are.

Also, on a personal note, this would really bring Theon's character full circle for me and redeem him in the best way GRRM can offer. I hated hated hated Theon in ACOK and ASOS for obvious reasons, but seeing him vulnerable and broken really broke my heart. I couldn't help but root for him. And now, if he is regaining power and seeking revenge on those who hurt everyone instead of betraying those who helped and trusted him, I would know that in some twisted way he had redeemed himself.

[FittleLinger]

Malgarroth, on 11 June 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I would like it to be Benjen, but I can't see him coming south of the Wall without checking in with the NW first, not after so many died simply looking for him.

Plus that shits on my Benjen is Coldhands theory.

There's been a recent theory by bemused in this thread http://asoiaf.wester...3/page__st__100
that if the CotF/BR somehow "found" Benjen the same way as they called Bran or similar, they may have sent him to Winterfell for some reason (possibly because of There must always be a Stark at WF, provided it has a supernatural origin), so that's why he hasn't returned at the Wall. Jon's at the Wall and CotR/BR know he should be there and is sufficient. This, of course, discards Benjen=Coldhands theory, which is pretty common, but I don't believe in it for several reasons.

[bemused]

Thanks for linking , FittleLinger..

The HM and bloodlust ? I don't feel that at all . And I never could buy the Theon split personality theory. People have said he must have seen his reflection in the glass gardens , but we've been told they've been badly shattered and what remains is covered in hoarfrost ..no possibility of reflection.

I don't think  Theon ever really believes he's Reek. He has to constantly remind himself to answer to Reek, call himself Reek, cringe , as Reek must do in the hope of avoiding more pain and disfigurement. Deep down he knows he's playing a part.

As soon as he's in the company of those not associated with Ramsay, or as soon as he's out of Ramsay's reach, he can begin to allow himself to think , speak ,be Theon again .(e.g... at Moat Cailin ..with Jeyne and the spearwives .. with the Umbers and Stannis and with the Old Gods and ghosts of WF ) This is only true to a degree with Roose and Lady Dustin , because he can't be sure Ramsay won't find out.

When he won't remove his gloves , I don't think it's as much out of shame, as out of fear that Ramsay will retaliate if people should judge Ramsay for what he's done to Theon. ( E.g. Ramsay's threats to Theon when Roose takes him. Theon's fear to even accept clean clothes. ) ... so he has no fear this person will be speaking to Ramsay.

Theon wonders if this can be the Killer, the nightwalker..later , the same night , he thinks the spearwives are responsible.... but earlier in the evening, before he left the hall , he felt the killings were very like the killings in WF when he held it ...but that time ,the killer was Reek..a different Reek, with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips like honey. That Reek rhymed with sneak , not meek . We know who Reek was at that time, and I think this first guess by Theon was the right one.

I think Ramsay is the killer ( except for LW and perhaps the odd real accident , like the stables collapsing ) and the HM is in WF for  the conspiracy.

[FittleLinger]

I have a question. Do we somehow have an account of what was the last time (if any) there was no Stark at the wall? I think there must always be a Stark at the Wall, as well as in WF. Bran the builder build them both, infused them with some magic, Starks are key for both places I think. And the Starks had the tradition of sending second and third sons at the wall for ages.

[Buried Treasure]

When Cat lists the Stark family tree there are several generations without any spare brothers, so for that time until Benjen joined there wouldn't have been Starks there.

I don't buy that the Starks have magic in their line myself. They are no more descended from Brandon the Builder than any of the other houses of the north. Starks being in Winterfell are important because after 1000's of years that is the proper order of things, and when the proper order of things is not right the bad times are always just around the corner. I think it's just symbolism that has been cemented into tradition.

[Noelle Snow]

I think there's more to it than just tradition. It's that word "must".

Makes me wonder if, since there is no Stark in WF at the moment and some of the swords are gone from the statues in the crypts, if some of the old Lords of WF or Kings of Winter have risen because they know none of their blood are in residence.

[Buried Treasure]

The word 'must' would apply if the tradition had survived long enough to become an ingrained superstition. Doesn't mean there's a truly magical reason at the bottom of it.

[bemused]

Buried Treasure, on 15 August 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

The word 'must' would apply if the tradition had survived long enough to become an ingrained superstition. Doesn't mean there's a truly magical reason at the bottom of it.

Nor does it mean there isn't. ... If it was just a statement of history, you might expect "There has always been a Stark " ...If it was just to say ,that's the traditional way of things , you might expect "There should always be a Stark. " ..it's the use of must that allows for a more imperative reason , and since both the Wall and WF share  Bran the Builder as architect , you can't rule out that magic was used.

Whether descended from Bran the Builder or not, it seems pretty clear that Starks have always ruled in WF , so it was probably  built with them specifically in mind ... As with the gate under the Nightfort being attuned to NW brothers, there may be things in WF that only a Stark can access( the magic being Bran the Builder's but attuned to Starks.)

Yeah , I don't know if you would call it 'magic", but whatever the terminology, there is something special about the Starks. We've seen BR/CoTF /CH save or guide a few people .. but the purpose of it all was to further the path of a Stark. Guide Bran to them , using Sam ( Jon's buddy and carrier of the broken horn) to do it ...Sam and probably BR in Mormont's raven get Jon elected ..Meera , Jojen and Hodor..Gilly and her baby were just tag-alongs. ( this as well as other things makes me suspect they've commandeered Benjen and sent him back to WF as the HM  ,but I won't go into all that just now).

GRRM has said all the Starks are wargs ( not just Ned's kids , all )..how bloody rare is that ? Think of what Bran is told..skinchangers -one in a hundred..of them , greenseers -one in a thousand. ...I dont know if anything else might be special about them , but that, in itself would be a very useful ability to have in winter ..needing to keep  an eye out for Others.

I also can't help wondering, as they develop their abilities more fully , whether they'll be able to sense where  other Starks are ,E.G. the way their wolves can sense their siblings, but of course with a more human mindset..? Who knows, but Jon keeps feeling Benjen is alive..even though , rationally, he knows he probably shouldn't.

Edited by bemused, 16 August 2012 - 02:29 AM.

[FittleLinger]

Noelle Snow, on 15 August 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

I think there's more to it than just tradition. It's that word "must".

Makes me wonder if, since there is no Stark in WF at the moment and some of the swords are gone from the statues in the crypts, if some of the old Lords of WF or Kings of Winter have risen because they know none of their blood are in residence.

Buried Treasure, on 15 August 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

The word 'must' would apply if the tradition had survived long enough to become an ingrained superstition. Doesn't mean there's a truly magical reason at the bottom of it.

My personal belief - i think it had a supernatural origin, and then evolved as a tradition and a motto, when there was no "need" to remember the actual supernatural origin. Just like the wall - Mormont says (upon his death I think, not really sure), that the wall and the Watch have forgotten their actual purpose - something along the lines that Bran the builder wouldn't make such a grand construction to defend the realm from some wildlings that steal daughters and food. Beforehand we know of the WW threat, and after we realize there really IS magic in the wall. I think the same can be applied for Winterfell and the motto.

[Buried Treasure]

bemused, on 16 August 2012 - 02:28 AM, said:

Nor does it mean there isn't. ... If it was just a statement of history, you might expect "There has always been a Stark " ...If it was just to say ,that's the traditional way of things , you might expect "There should always be a Stark. " ..it's the use of must that allows for a more imperative reason , and since both the Wall and WF share  Bran the Builder as architect , you can't rule out that magic was used.

Whether descended from Bran the Builder or not, it seems pretty clear that Starks have always ruled in WF , so it was probably  built with them specifically in mind ... As with the gate under the Nightfort being attuned to NW brothers, there may be things in WF that only a Stark can access( the magic being Bran the Builder's but attuned to Starks.)

I certainly don't rule out magic and protective spells in the building of Winterfell, you are dead right there. However I don't see how Winterfell could have been built  with the Starks specifically in mind or if it had been how those spells could still be valid given the probable non-descent of the current Starks from the ancient Starks. The Stark name has always ruled in Winterfell but that is just a name

Quote

Yeah , I don't know if you would call it 'magic", but whatever the terminology, there is something special about the Starks. We've seen BR/CoTF /CH save or guide a few people .. but the purpose of it all was to further the path of a Stark. Guide Bran to them , using Sam ( Jon's buddy and carrier of the broken horn) to do it ...Sam and probably BR in Mormont's raven get Jon elected ..Meera , Jojen and Hodor..Gilly and her baby were just tag-alongs. ( this as well as other things makes me suspect they've commandeered Benjen and sent him back to WF as the HM  ,but I won't go into all that just now).

GRRM has said all the Starks are wargs ( not just Ned's kids , all )..how bloody rare is that ? Think of what Bran is told..skinchangers -one in a hundred..of them , greenseers -one in a thousand. ...I dont know if anything else might be special about them , but that, in itself would be a very useful ability to have in winter ..needing to keep  an eye out for Others.

I also can't help wondering, as they develop their abilities more fully , whether they'll be able to sense where  other Starks are ,E.G. the way their wolves can sense their siblings, but of course with a more human mindset..? Who knows, but Jon keeps feeling Benjen is alive..even though , rationally, he knows he probably shouldn't.

Agree the current generation of Starks is special and magical but I don't think that has been true for all Starks in history. I've never heard anything about all Starks being warg, just all 5 of the kids (an arguement mostly used to cover Sansa as her direwolf died before she began wargin). I have seen it stated that Ned was not a warg, per GRRM. Yeah, so many wargs at once is really rare and so I doubt it is a latent ability in the line that just happened to manifest in this generation. The old gods gave the kids the gify of  wolves to warg into, why not the actual warging ability as well?

The old gods by helping the Stark kids are equipping their human champions with what they need to fight the war against the Others. Yet I don't think the old gods chose them because they have any inherent specialness of their lineage, but because they are perceived by other northmen to be the proper leaders for the north. If history had gone differently and Winterfell had been destroyed a 1000 years ago and the Umbers, say, where rulers of the North I think the old gods would have used them as their champions.

[Starks Among Us]

Wolves of Winter, on 13 July 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Anyone NOT a Stark who tries to lord over Winterfell meets an awful fate, if there can be any lesson learned from Theon's experience.  Doubtless and countless horrors await Ramsey Snow.

Is that evidenced anywhere by any of their ancestors?
And could his ghost haunt WF if he didn't die there and his bones aren't there? I thought people usually haunted the place they died....though I was wondering the same about Bran "seeing" him there but just assumed it meant that his dad was going to die an would soon be buried in the crypts. I wonder if Hodor's fear during the first book had anything to do with Ned's ghost haunting it....

[Knight errant]

Sorry guys couldn't be bothered to read all these but someone raised an interesting point as to the words the HM uses : "Kinslayer". Only one man is reported to have called Theon that ; An Umber (I have been told but must check this myself, the rest fits quite nicely however). Let's look at the evidence for this particular wild card :




One of them has seen Theon before and vice versa so they know each other and would recognize each other (Both Umbers and him are quite memorable looking).
Roose mentions that they may not be overtly Game of thronesy but do possess a "Certain low cunning". One's also been trained as a maester (The one inside the castle who oddly, didn't sign his name). Clearly they are smarter than they let on if even Roose is mindful.

Moreover in the chaos could they pick up on the rising body count? Yes. Do they have a motive? Yes. they know all the umber men who died at the RW, including their great Nephew Smalljon and their other  Nephew (Or is it cousin?) is a prisoner so they can't partake in hostilities to the throne - openly. Are the Umbers known for being belligerent? Yes. If an Umber saw some little sadistic frey kid up to no good with the other murders happening like he'd think twice before killing the shit out of that little kid and making his own meal of them.

I think it may have been either another wildcard, the manderly man who lost money too him (Oscams razor) OR an Umber. During this whole time Hother has been surprisingly inactive. Dustin, Manderly and even his brother have been doing stuff, why not him? Maybe he has. Maybe he snuck out the night Theon saw him and spoke to his brother about the traps(This part is crackport admittedly) or was at least aware of them and then killed a frey to generate such a reaction?

Hell he may have just killed a random frey and got lucky.


Edit: IT IS NOT GHOSTS. I can safely say, that is naught but an old legend, unless you believe Bronze Yohns armor is also magic (God I wish it was)

Edited by Knight errant, 12 December 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[Starks Among Us]

Knight errant, on 12 December 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Edit: IT IS NOT GHOSTS. I can safely say, that is naught but an old legend, unless you believe Bronze Yohns armor is also magic (God I wish it was)

ah yes, in a world where dragons, zombies, fireworms, FM, CotF, and more exist (when they were "naught but an old legend", having ghosts wondering around would be completely ludacris. lol.

Edited by Kristina Harvey, 12 December 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[bemused]

Knight errant.. I think it's highly likely that there was no real Manderly man who lost money to LW. He was very likely only an invention by BW . Manderly is known to be rich in silver , and the Freys have been trying to implicate him in the deaths in WF , because they feel certain he did in their kinsmen... BW's whole story and Roose's willing acceptance of it  ..as well as (very uncharacteristically ) loudly waxing poetic about it .. seem very put on , very theatrical to me.

Buried Treasure ... If GRRM only meant the 5 Stark kids, OK ...but still , the ability has been very prominent among Starks ( unless the direwolf statues accompanying the statues of the Kings of Winter are all just a convention ). But I wouldn't rule out latent abilities coming to the fore. As others have pointed out , there's a lot of Stark blood floating around the North , and we don't have a lengthy genealogy of the family. ( Lady Barbrey seems to imply that a southron marriage for Brandon or Ned was a departure from the Norm)

Besides , the genetics of GRRM's world seem to work slightly differently than those of our own. How likely would it be, in our world, for many generations of Baratheons to produce only black haired , blue eyed offspring ? ( In spite of different colouring on the maternal side )

If it's a "magical " ability being passed on , it might only come to the fore in response to a magical threat ,or some other catalyst. ..I have wondered , just in passing, if the fact that ( as Theon says in AGoT) a direwolf hasn't been seen south of the wall in 2 hundred years ( and by extension , pretty rarely for much longer ) , whether it would take a Stark child to be in contact with a direwolf , specifically, to spark their ability as a wargs...

I could definitely see Bloodraven, e.g., sending/ riding a pregnant direwolf south .. being aware of the coming threat long before anyone else.

I guess the upshot is , I do think there is a magical reason , somehow carried in the blood, for both being wargs and " There must be a Stark in WF "

As to the gods , I'm reminded of GRRM saying that gods exist because men need them to .. and that we won't be meeting any. ( I believe in one of the video interviews , or maybe the Q&A from Toronto ?) Anyway, this only reinforces my feeling that magic exists , and men find different methods of harnessing it .. naturally attributing any successes they have to whatever god they revere.

Edited by bemused, 12 December 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Starks Among Us]

Since all the Stark kids have their wolves and can warg into them, what does everyone think this means for Sansa who's wolf died( and not just died but was killed by one of her own pack (Ned)? Also when Ned states (when trying to reconcile Arya and Sansa) that the lone wolf dies but the pack survives...does this have any deeper meaning? I mean, I guess right now Sansa could be considered a lone wolf? Has she had any dreams or anything? I mean, I know Arya isn't exactly with Nymeria but they still have that connection but to my knowledge Sansa has none?

Any thoughts on this?