179 replies to this topic

[Swordswench]

Swift, on 17 July 2011 - 07:36 AM, said:

The distinction between Others and wights has me confused. Throughout the first four books I thought wights were just another name for Others - similar to how Martin gives more than one name to lots of characters. Sometimes people refer to Loras as Ser Loras, other times the Knight of Flowers, etc.

Same killed something with his dagger, and everyone said he killed an Other, but what was different that "Other" and all the Wights we have seen?

I thought Others were undead with evil ice swords, and were a more powerful, intelligent bunch than wights; kind of a leader class. From a practical, fighting standpoint, the distinction is pretty negligible aside from the weaponry, so I suppose the terms would get interchanged.  IIRC there's some small brouhahah made over Samwell killing not just a wight but an Other. I'd love to be corrected in this if it's a misconception on my part...


Back to Bran, though - perhaps the COTF/the 3EC became interested in Bran because they knew he wouldn't be able to physically leave their domain on his own power since their numbers are dwindling, and it wouldn't be likely they'd find a talented volunteer like Brynden again (assuming Brynden was a volunteer). As for Jojen, his greendreams seem to convey information to him metaphorically, so maybe he's only now beginning to piece together the true meaning of his dreams about his own fate.

[Andhaira]

This was a very well written chapter. It did have sinister undertones, and the CoTF do seem to be somewhat dark. And yes, I do believe this is the end of the road for Bran. He will never leave. He will eventually become like Bloodraven, bonded to a Weirwood tree, though with an unnaturally long lifespan. Bloodraven will likely die before the end of the series, and leave Bran as the last Greenseer. However, since Bran will eventually learn to throw his consciousness to the winds, and possible warg human beings from a long distance away, it wont really matter to him as much.

Bran still has to learn about the fate of Robb Stark and his mother. He still thinks they are alive.

Regarding the Reeds, they do seem stuck there until winter passes, which could be many years. I personally don't care too much for them, as they were IMO an unecessary plot device. I hope they are both killed by the time the next book rolls around. Heck, Bran could probably watch them die and it could present a moral dilema for him as he watches his beloved Meera pass away.

[The Númenórean]

Swordswench, on 17 July 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

I thought Others were undead with evil ice swords, and were a more powerful, intelligent bunch than wights; kind of a leader class. From a practical, fighting standpoint, the distinction is pretty negligible aside from the weaponry, so I suppose the terms would get interchanged.  IIRC there's some small brouhahah made over Samwell killing not just a wight but an Other.

The Others are a completely separate race with a unique language and weaponry/armor. The best proof of this is the prologue in AGOT. Wights are created by any creature killed by Others, and basically semi sentient zombies.

[Swordswench]

The Númenórean, on 17 July 2011 - 11:37 AM, said:

The Others are a completely separate race with a unique language and weaponry/armor. The best proof of this is the prologue in AGOT. Wights are created by any creature killed by Others, and basically semi sentient zombies.

That's what I thought, more or less. Thank you.

[malarky1231]

The Wights are the servants of the Others. Basically their slaves/creatures. After all they are created when a creature is slain by the ice swords the others possess. Wights aren't just undead humans, they consist of undead animals too, like polar bears, crows, dogs...

[Swordswench]

malarky1231, on 17 July 2011 - 11:59 AM, said:

The Wights are the servants of the Others. Basically their slaves/creatures. After all they are created when a creature is slain by the ice swords the others possess. Wights aren't just undead humans, they consist of undead animals too, like polar bears, crows, dogs...

That still doesn't preclude the COTF from having some measure of control over the wights that men don't. The Others may be the COTF's mortal foes, but that doesn't mean that the COTF are on the side of "good" as men understand it either.

[malarky1231]

We haven't seen anything to convince us otherwise. The COTF by all means seems interested in restoring balance and harmony. By training Bran to replace Bloodraven, this seems like a likely scenario. Their powers seem limited to the weirwood and nature in general. It doesn't seem likely they have power over the wights.

[lockesnow]

I don't think this is the last Bran chapter or the end of Bran, but we're likely to get only one or two chapters with him in future volumes.  He's crippled, in this place he has eyes and legs and wings.  Wings most of all. I think the singers and bloodraven wanted Bran there because Bloodraven will not be strong enough to skinchange to one or all of Dany's dragons, and they will need the dragons to fight the others.  Bran was meant to spend five years as part of the tree learning much and more, this chapter relates events that would likely have been in the first Bran chapter if there had been a five year gap. :-p

I love it, Martin lets a cripple fly. I have to reread ACOK now for the chapter when Jon was on a weirwood stump and had a connection to Bran, clearly that was not Bran as we knew him in ACOK but Bran as we know him now (or in the future).

I loved, loved the descriptions of time here, beautifully written.  I like the idea that the ones who sing the song of earth are there for balance not for good or for evil.  They are not the ones who sing the song of fire or the ones who sing the song of ice.  they sing the song of earth.  I think because they are there for balance, Bran may not be very happy with them down the road if victory for them means restoring the Others to the eternal sleep rather than genociding them from the earth as the humans are like to do.  That's sort of foreshadowed when Bran thinks that men would be WROTH if they were fading from the earth like the giants, unicorns, mammoths and ones who sing the song of earth.  Men are Wroth and they will not be looking for balance again at the end, the balance struck during the war for the dawn.  They will be wanting genocide, and I don't know that Bran will want any differently.

Edited by lockesnow, 17 July 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[Swordswench]

lockesnow, on 17 July 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

I don't think this is the last Bran chapter or the end of Bran, but we're likely to get only one or two chapters with him in future volumes.

...

I love it, Martin lets a cripple fly. I have to reread ACOK now for the chapter when Jon was on a weirwood stump and had a connection to Bran, clearly that was not Bran as we knew him in ACOK but Bran as we know him now (or in the future).

...

think because they are there for balance, Bran may not be very happy with them down the road if victory for them means restoring the Others to the eternal sleep rather than genociding them from the earth as the humans are like to do.  That's sort of foreshadowed when Bran thinks that men would be WROTH if they were fading from the earth like the giants, unicorns, mammoths and ones who sing the song of earth.  Men are Wroth and they will not be looking for balance again at the end, the balance struck during the war for the dawn.  They will be wanting genocide, and I don't know that Bran will want any differently.

Future Bran chapters probably are in the pike. More than likely, though, they'll be titled "The Weirwood" or "Greenseer" or something like that. I really do think that over time (or after being unloosed in time as Bran now is in a sense), he'll lose touch with his humanity. His loyalties to his family may remain, but that of course remains to be seen.

I wonder if the COTF aren't wroth at men. They're probably capable of enough restraint to not take it out on them, but they might get their digs in here and there.

And I've always had a lot of admiration for the depiction of and development of disabled characters in ASOIAF. GRRM's approach to disability and what it means to his characters has been one of those things about his writing that appeals to me.

Very interesting point about the weirwood stump, btw. I image this chapter's going to be the cause of a lot of re-reading of weirwood references from here on out!

[dreamcatcher]

I've (quickly) re-read the chapter on Jon in ACoK where he's having the wolf dreams and talking to Weirwood-Bran. It's amazing how it all sums up!
We know that Jon is a warg, so his wolf dreams aren't dreams at all, rather than what really happens at night. So my question is this: are people being warged to animals able to communicate to weirwoods?

[Calibandar]

Fantastic chapter again, love the Bran chapters in this book. If only there'd be more of them.

The vision he has of Ned at the Hearttree does not confirm R+L=J but is one more argument in it's favour. It's more likely Ned spoke those words if Jon is not Robb's brother at all, than if he were his half-brother already. But then of course the evidence for R+L=J is so overwhelming already.

Loved seeing Bran being instruced by Bloodraven, loved him connecting with the trees. We are told that in time he will be able to see beyond the trees as well, so just have visions regardless of whether a tree was there to withness it. Already Bloodraven says he will be able to see through various hearttrees.

It seems Bran's skill is very natural and highly developed, as we expected.

Interesting also that while Meera might be inclined to stay with Bran, Jojen seems to be surplus now, as Jojen himself admits.

[Calibandar]

Dreamcather

Quote

So my question is this: are people being warged to animals able to communicate to weirwoods?

Not from what we have seen, that is beholden to Greenseers. It is Bran who manifests himself in the weirwood, not Jon, who only witnesses.

On another note, Coldhands is clearly Brynden's man, not of the Children of the Forest. It is curious that we did not get to see any of the magical abilities that CoTF themselves had, for instance the 6 that were named. We know they are not greenseers though, like Brynden and Bran.

Edited by Calibandar, 18 July 2011 - 07:41 AM.

[Erodite]

The debate on what aSoFaI Gods are has just got interesting.  Is there a R'Hollor or just sorcerers that cast a religious framework to their misunderstood arts?  Are there 'Old Gods' or are there just overly powerful Greenseer-Wargs who make extensive use of the Magical Weirwoods and the myriad animals who live around them?  

The trees absorb the souls, thoughts and memories of other warg-seers, they might also drink in the memories of the blood shed there.  Could they see into the histories of living men who shed ritual blood there?  Being supra-sentient, the knowledge and communications of the Seers could seem god-like.

So Bran can talk though trees, see (and shape?) history, he can talk through Hodor, can Raven-Warg and Ravens can talk.  He's also been in more characters POV's in aDWD than any other.  Might be that Bran's in every chapter in the new book.    

Bran could be the only good this series sees.  He just needs to seize his siblings wolves' packs, command the North through the trees, step into Mormont's Raven to guide the Watch, dominate a Dragon all while taking on a second life as Hodor the DragonKnight!  (note this involves slaying The Headless Mountain who Died).

[Erodite]

Not sure if CotF are evil, just rather indifferent, much like the 'Old Gods' themselves.  Can't wait to see how Melisandre's opposition to them plays out.

Edited by Erodite, 18 July 2011 - 02:03 PM.

[Iotun]

A truly horrible chapter in my opinion. As much as I have loved the rest of the book, the Bran chapters seem to be going from bad to worse, so much that I wonder if I'm still reading aSoIaF or some other book. They seem so out of place. Is this the series I have loved so much, with its human drama, political intrigue, and mysterious and unexplainable magic in the fringes of the world? It seems like we've fallen into the a parallel realm of mediocre Tolkien clones. In a world of complex and grey characters, we are fed with the incredibly cliche, cartoonish children of the forest - 'oh we live long lives, but there are few of us because of the balance of nature, and oh the destructive nature of man, and the sadness of the loss of the old powers - out pure voices and our days spend singing to the earth. Woe to us who lost the unicorns and are not individuals, but a whole race treated as a collective 'thing' - the old and fading away noble race that was driven off by man. The one dimensionality and fantasy-cliches are so thick I can barely breathe. Meanwhile bloodraven, an apparently cool human character is devolved into a bad Gandalf impersonator, talking in pseudo-philosophies about the trees and the soil and the acorns and the birds, blahblahblah...

Mysterious and unknowable fantasy, that we can barely understand ourselves? No, greenseers who warg and see from trees, and let's give some statistical figures on how often they appear, and how long they live to make magic 'logical' and 'structured'. Wasn't there some sinister, malevolent feeling to the vision of a thousand crows sitting on trees speaking around Coldhands in the dead of night? Well lets' try to give this an explanation. Meanwhile, Bran, an otherwise interesting character with an otherwise great story arc - the broken boy who wants to be a princeling and a knight, who once worried about being the lord of his father's castle, who's in love with a girl that he's afraid to talk to, seems bound to end up with one of the most bleak, dark, and depressing fates of all the characters. I truly wish for something good to come to Meera and Jojen, I really like them. Is it too much to ask for at least some characters to have a good ending? I hope they leave, and take Bran with them, and even if he's a greenseer, they get him to practice his powers out in the open air, and let the children and the 3EC rot in their caves.

[Iotun]

Just wanted to add, to emphasize again, how incredibly sad this chapter is, if its going where I think its going. Martin seems to want to tell the story of the mysterious, powerful, almost godly man of the Old forest, but actually show us how he got there. Probably knowbody will know what happened to Bran. He may never even wake up now - and all his humanity may been taken from her. The dreams of knighthood and his love will never be. Because his destiny is to be the greenseer and that is it.

For us as much as I hated this chapter, if this is what Martin will do, he seems to have captured the tragedy of the hero with the destiny he cannot avoid far better than other writers, whose character bemoan their destiny and the struggles they are meant to face, as they fuck pretty girls and are admired throughout the realm.

[Calesta]

What is the point of the greenseer if he can interact with nothing? No one knows he there so he can't tell anyone about anything.

[JeremyReed]

Can someone explain to me how bran is a greenseeer if he has blue eyes? bloodraven claims they either have red or green eyes. Also didn't one of Jojen's green dreams predict that Ramsay Bolton would kill bran... and don't his dreams always become true.

[Calesta]

I belive it was the millers children he saw and he belived it was rickon and bran. So what he saw did come true but he didn't interpet it right.

[JeremyReed]

Calesta, on 19 July 2011 - 12:35 AM, said:

I belive it was the millers children he saw and he belived it was rickon and bran. So what he saw did come true but he didn't interpet it right.

I think that was theon who killed the millers children...