[ADWD SPOILERS] Daenerys 8

[Aryador]

Her lack of scheming is very troubling. Even Cersei was trying to think about what her foes would do next, who they were allied with etc... She was very bad at it, but Dany didn't even try.

That's not true. She is thinking a lot about what her foes are doing and why they are doing it. I remember a paragraph in the book, where she's thinking about who the "harpy" could be, and she ends up with the idea that the harpy probably is not a single person, but lots of people. I call that a very mature thought: Realizing that you cannot quench an uprising by simple get rid of one single "leader" person.

I am not happy with Dany neither at this point, but I frankly don't understand the criticism.

Yes, it was not wise to stay at Meereen. We know that now. Did we know it before? If GRRM had written the story arch in a way that Dany could have proved her faboulous skills as a queen, would we still have chided Dany for staying at Meereen, or would we have applauded her for this wise idea of an "apprentice queen"?

Well, turns out, the idea might have been good, the reality is ugly. In a way, I still like it, how GRRM still tampers with our expectations. So, what would we have done in her position? Would any of us have been a wiser ruler? Doubt it. She has a hell lot of problems on her plate. Internal quarrel in a society, that does not know yet how to deal with a new situation, and enemies who are angry that she defeated them. I especially liked the conversation with Plumm: He admits freely, that she was able to turn him on her conquest, but that it is pure logic for a sellsword to turn again, once the odds are different. There, she learned something.

What Dany needs are advisors she can trust.

But where are they?

The Meereenese all have agendas of their own. Barristan is an old knight, who values honor more than anything else. Jorah Mormont might be a good advisor in our opinion, but if you see it with her eyes, he planned to betray her, and is now a liability, because he is in love with her.

Who is left?

Quentyn? We know him as somebody who took a lot of risks, she only sees a very young boy? A young queen being counseled by a young boy? Not a very promising idea. Tyrion? (If he finally makes his way to her) We know Tyrion for a long time, we know his deepest hidden feelings and thoughts, and we all know that he has a certain kindness inside. But would we trust him, if we just would meet him the first time? Catelyn was not a stupid woman, she had more cunning in her than Robb did, but she of course never trusted Tyrion a bit.

I think we as readers often fall into the trap that we cannot separate inside POV from outside encounters anymore. That's why some of those chapters and story archs are so frustrating for us (same with the whole Lady-Stoneheart-Brienne-Jamie affair).

But all in all, I call that great writing.

To me, Dany is a very round character at this time. A very interesting one. I might not want her as my queen a this stage, but there are certainly different dimensions to her character. And I can totally understand her and what she is doing. I might not agree with her, far from it, but i can understand her.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

That's not true. She is thinking a lot about what her foes are doing and why they are doing it. I remember a paragraph in the book, where she's thinking about who the "harpy" could be, and she ends up with the idea that the harpy probably is not a single person, but lots of people. I call that a very mature thought: Realizing that you cannot quench an uprising by simple get rid of one single "leader" person.

I am not happy with Dany neither at this point, but I frankly don't understand the criticism.

Yes, it was not wise to stay at Meereen. We know that now. Did we know it before? If GRRM had written the story arch in a way that Dany could have proved her faboulous skills as a queen, would we still have chided Dany for staying at Meereen, or would we have applauded her for this wise idea of an "apprentice queen"?

Well, turns out, the idea might have been good, the reality is ugly. In a way, I still like it, how GRRM still tampers with our expectations. So, what would we have done in her position? Would any of us have been a wiser ruler? Doubt it. She has a hell lot of problems on her plate. Internal quarrel in a society, that does not know yet how to deal with a new situation, and enemies who are angry that she defeated them. I especially liked the conversation with Plumm: He admits freely, that she was able to turn him on her conquest, but that it is pure logic for a sellsword to turn again, once the odds are different. There, she learned something.

What Dany needs are advisors she can trust.

But where are they?

The Meereenese all have agendas of their own. Barristan is an old knight, who values honor more than anything else. Jorah Mormont might be a good advisor in our opinion, but if you see it with her eyes, he planned to betray her, and is now a liability, because he is in love with her.

Who is left?

Quentyn? We know him as somebody who took a lot of risks, she only sees a very young boy? A young queen being counseled by a young boy? Not a very promising idea. Tyrion? (If he finally makes his way to her) We know Tyrion for a long time, we know his deepest hidden feelings and thoughts, and we all know that he has a certain kindness inside. But would we trust him, if we just would meet him the first time? Catelyn was not a stupid woman, she had more cunning in her than Robb did, but she of course never trusted Tyrion a bit.

I think we as readers often fall into the trap that we cannot separate inside POV from outside encounters anymore. That's why some of those chapters and story archs are so frustrating for us (same with the whole Lady-Stoneheart-Brienne-Jamie affair).

But all in all, I call that great writing.

To me, Dany is a very round character at this time. A very interesting one. I might not want her as my queen a this stage, but there are certainly different dimensions to her character. And I can totally understand her and what she is doing. I might not agree with her, far from it, but i can understand her.

Just want to say, great post. :agree: with everything you said.

[Lady Snark]

Very well said, Aryador! :thumbsup:

[Tammy]

I find it very difficult to sympathise with Dany at any point of this chapter. She has got to the point where she has given up on Meereen, Hizdhar now rules the city through her - because she is entirely incapable of ruling herself. She has a long way to g before she should even contemplate sitting the Iron Throne.

In a book that is about accepting responsibility for your own actions, Dany is the only character who can't accept that she is doing a terrible job of ruling Meereen.

* Dany has become more and more prone to bouts of escapism. She asks Missandei at the end of the chapter to tell her about Naath and the butterflies, she clearly does not want to be in Meereen any more. In a previous chapter, Dany has sex with Daario as opposed to holding court. She doesn't want to rule, she wants to liberate and conquer and move on.

* She is convinced that Quentyn was called Frog because he wasn't handsome, she doesn't ever ask the reason. She is so self absorbed and interested only in surface beauty that she does not even consider any other option. She also judges the Yunkai armies as absurd - but they have just forced her into peace!

* Why did she take Quentyn to the dragons? She was trying to convince the Prince of Dorne to go home, but instead takes him to the dragon pit and says: "I don't want you, but look at my three dragons... oh what's that I can only ride one?"

* She seems to think that she has worked so hard for this peace agreement with the Yunkai, when she has actively worked against it for most of the book.

This is such a great assessment of this chapter. I'm quite disappointed in her reaction to Quentyn and her dismissiveness to him. Does she not realize just how much of a common cause they have or the determination and courage it had to take for him and just a few others to fight against all the odds and make it to her, yet he's not that attractive so she pays him little mind.

She and Jon and traveling such a similar journey, yet they are dealing with their issues in such different ways.

[Ned'sHead]

Please GRRM, make her leave Meereen. I really just don't care anymore.

[Morky_Pep]

She took Quentyn to see the dragons because she wanted to see how he would react to them. It is clear that Dany is attracted to strong/warrior like men. Thus how when Quentyn steps back she says something along the lines of "he doesnt belong here". So now she feels that Quentyn is not worthy of her.

The whole purpose of the riders only riding one dragon was to show us the significance of the "three dragon heads". Foreshadowing that she will marry 2 people who will ride the dragons with her. After Quentyns reaction to the dragons she determines that there is no way Quentyn will be her husband or her dragon rider. On a side note, i dont think that Hizdahr willl be a dragon rider either.....

Favorite part about the chapter was the dialogue between Dany and Brown Ben Plumm. The fact that Plumm had the guts to lay it down like it is to Dany was really awsome, and somehow because of this conversation, i hope we see more of him.

[DanyStark]

I can just picture Barristan Selmy's strong, stern presence. Would love to see a POV from him!

[subversivegrrl]

My first post, and I'm coming late to the game (had to wait a bit to buy the book):

I'm frustrated with Dany too, because she seems so much less "queenly", but I've been thinking a lot about how she's behaved in past and how she is in ADWD. Sorry this is so long, but I've read all of the posts for this section, and I'm amazed at how high many of you have set the bar for her.

Dany's decisions have always been ruled by her heart. She saved the Lhazareen women from rape even though it made her unpopular with Drogo's men, but back then she was under Drogo's protection and could act with impunity. She continued in the same vein when they went to Astapor, Yunkai, and Meeren - acting from her heart without consideration of the long-term consequences. She thought that freeing the slaves would change everything, and when she learned that her "liberation" of Astapor and Yunkai didn't last and that they were turning into just another kind of oppressive state, she didn't know how to deal with it. Her position now is that she can't let the same thing happen in Meereen - she feels responsible for the people. That's also why she can't just let the Astapori refugees starve to death, although she recognized the need to keep them outside the walls. She's responding as a teenaged girl, not a hardened ruler.

But exactly how is it that Dany is supposed to know how to rule? She wasn't raised at court, and spent most of her life prior to marrying Drogo moving from place to place as a fugitive/virtual beggar, under Viserys' thumb. Her only real examples of "kingly" behavior have been a) Viserys (crazy and cruel, consequences are beneath my notice), B) Drogo (warrior, full speed ahead and we'll cut the heads off any consequences.) If she'd known to emulate Illyrio she might be further ahead in the game, but how was she supposed to anticipate that she would need to be able to plot and scheme (guess she should have had a Lannister at her side to teach her, hm?) The model she has been presented with all along has been pretty much "the smallfolk of Westeros dream of the Targaryens' return, just show up and they'll return you to the Iron Throne," and that applied to Viserys, not herself. The wheeling and dealing that has gone on around her (by Illyrio & others) has mainly been done away from her observation - she hasn't sat in on their councils and learned by their examples. She knows she's something special, but she hasn't exactly been given the tools to make that a reality.

She has made decisions based on what's in front of her, and no, she's not particularly good at anticipating the ripple effects of any of them - but then, she has been thrown into a culture with unfamiliar customs and has had to find her way based on information given to her mainly by people who are promoting their own agendas. I agree that the thing with Daario is totally escapist - put in a no-win position with all of these grinding issues facing you (at her age - what is she now, 15? - with the expectations of the world on you, having gone through everything she has up to this point), wouldn't you want to bury your head and take comfort in something familiar if you could?

Dany has had virtually no opportunity to connect with Quentyn Martell, except very superficially. She has finally (after doing her best to avoid it) made the decision that the only way to save all of these people for whom she feels responsible is to marry Hizdar: so at the last possible moment this guy shows up out of nowhere with a parchment that says someone made a pact to join House Targaryen with House Martell, and you're carping because she didn't immediately recognize the benefits of following through with that alliance and fall into Quentyn's arms? Also, I think she took him to see the dragons not to see how he would respond to them, but how they would respond to him. And he didn't pass muster.

I think she's done pretty well, considering the limits she's had to work within. And I think her path of accommodation is about to run its course.

[hesitantreader]

The issue I have with these chapters is that regardless of if her actions make sense, they make for very boring reading. This book would have been much stronger if her PoV had been cut and instead we saw this through the eyes of all the others heading towards the city. It would have left her actions open to interpretation and saved us the boring repetition of her story line.

[Moester]

i forget, why was he called frog?

From 'The Windlown' chapter:

They’d fastened Frog on him because he hopped so fast when the big man shouted a command.

A completely different reason behind his nickname, contrary to what Daenerys thinks.

[Arya Ready]

She doesn't want to rule, she wants to liberate and conquer and move on.

Maybe the problem is that she DIDN'T conquer and move on. That's what she did in the first couple of cities, and it would have been great for her... she was gaining manpower and could sack the cities for wealth and resources, and then move on until she could buy ships and sail back to Westeros. The problem was stopping there and setting up house. I get that she was trying to be responsible and go about things in what she thought was the "right" way, rather than just the "quick" way. She thought it would be good to practice rule first. I think she said something like gaining experience as a queen. I don't know... maybe it IS good that she did that, because she obviously does need the practice and to learn a lot, the hard way. That's why she's finding it all so difficult. It's really a trial by fire (strangely appropriate).

Her real problem right now is that she's totally lost her ability to correctly judge character. She desperately needs to surround herself with good advisors, but she has none, except for Barristan. She's trusted (or semi-trusted) all the wrong people. If she can get Tyrion into her camp, and trust him, it will do a HUGE amount of good.

Yes, I didn't quite get the dragon part either. Did Quentyn want to see the dragons? And why did Dany let him? And that bit about riding only one dragon... that part seemed stangely out of place. Interesting nonetheless, though, because at least we get some informations about the dragons and how they are doing. Reading about how they are chained up I can't shake the feeling that they'll turn against Dany in some way...

I think the whole point of that section was that she is having to realize that she can't conquer and rule Westeros by herself. It is going to take 3 people. She has to find the other two pieces of the puzzle, and as it stands now, she seems to have eliminated Quentyn as one of them. We can see that Jon is probably going to have to be one of the other two, but she doesn't even know he exists yet. And if Aegon is the other one, she has no idea about him either, because he turned around and went the opposite way. Again, if Tyrion shows up in Meereen and can gain a place in her court, he will provide some of this insight she lacks.

[lordthade]

I find it interesting that the queen that sets complete strangers free, and they call her "mother" for it... keeps her CHILDREN locked up in the cages and barely has time to bother with them.

This chapter was to introduce the conspiracies of the West to Dany. Obviously she was not very impressed by them.

[Misty]

Her attempt to make peace with her enemies is obviously not a good play because she is in a position of weakness but it is hard to see what else she could have done...since, you know, her position is bad.

Um... she has dragons...who she used to consider her children. That she now keeps chained up in a dungeon. Instead of lounging around and wringing her hands, go down there and start training them!

[Crown]

Eventually everyone will arrive in Mereen and things should get really interesting.

[Wah-Tah]

Jon's leadership of the Night's Watch makes for a great foil to Dany's rule in Mereen.

So absolutely true!

Jon isn't the perfect leader, but he analyzes the situation he's in, and makes the best possible decision--even if it makes him a few enemies.

Dany is so obsessed with pleasing everyone, and her need to be the "Mother" figure, that she would never be a good ruler. She is unable to make the hard decisions, when it comes down to it. It's not entirely her fault. She never had the role model that Jon did in Ned and Mormont. But she still has Ser Barristan, who is a wise and able adviser--if only she would listen to him.

[The Sun's Son]

Victarion and Aegon need to book the next flight to Meereen ASAP. Although the next chapter with the reopening of the fighting pits (and isn't Tyrion performing in one of them?) should be pretty good.

It was nice to see the dragons again. I assume they've grown a decent bit due to Dany's thought about how the level of the bones at the bottom of the pit seemed to have risen since the last time she was there. I also liked the bit about each person only being able to ride one dragon. I think it's pretty obvious that if Dany ever gets around to riding these things it'll be Drogon that she rides. Just a matter of who will be riding the other two...

Was hoping for a little more spark in the conversation between Dany and Brown Ben Plumm. She obviously hasn't forgiven him from her final comment to him but the idea that she understood the motivation behind his betrayal seemed out of character for someone who acts so strongly on her feelings.

Mostly, I'm ready for Dany to find some happiness. I think her chapters are tough to get through/get excited about because she's such a downer all of the time. And given her situation I guess I can't really blame her.

[Brielle Baratheon]

by this point I'm kinda hoping The "Mother of Dragons" becomes The "Dinner of Dragons" ;)

[AStrappingHealthyWench]

^^^This...lmao.

[Lelouch Li Brittania]

I like that she has troubles. I wouldnt have believed AT ALL if a foreigner of 14 just happened to cause a crazy ruckus in a distant land and seemed to make everything go well. She might ve achieved that BY FORCE, with the dragons, but that is not good ruling. She is doing what she can in a poor situation. Of course she is running from reality, I would too if everything I try to do ends up in a big pile of shit, but she doesnt run, she stays.

[Ser Skuall the Wolfheart]

Her arc has been becoming dull, dull, and uh more dull. I'm getting tired of Meereen just like so many of you.

At least it looks like Tyrion and her might end up actually taking note of one another and THAT will get my attention back for all the shiznit going on in Meereen, the city no one cares about.

As for her poor decisions and self-loathing, we should point out that she is still pretty darn young and has plenty of room for becoming the conquerer and ruler we all thought she would become. If only she could put her dragons into play...