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[ADWD SPOILERS] Jon 12


Xray the Enforcer

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Yeah, what tormund said about the others, shadows, and the forest is making me wonder about the true connection:relationship between the COTF, T3EC, and the Others. Hmmmmmmm

There might be some connection between CotF and Others, but it seems pretty clear that they're enemies. The stories of the Long Night indicate that the children helped them men against the Others then. And in Bran's chapters, there were wights positioned right outside of the entrance to the CotF's cave, stopped by wards that the children put up.

More likely that the wildlings aren't making a differentiation between the others and the CotF. They know they're being watched, but not by who.

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What? no comments about Jon's dream in the beginning of the chapter?

Lightbringer?

I also thought it was lightbringer. Also he dreams that they have all abandoned him - he sent everyone of his friends on the Wall away and now seemes quite alone in Castle Black. There aren't a lot of people there that like him very much, at the moment.

Him screaming "I am the Lord of Winterfell" is either him dealing with the decision he made of staying on the Wall, over being legitimised and proclaimed Lord of Winterfell. Or it could be something else.

And why hasn't anyone commented on the raven saying his name? More so, why hasn't anyone comented on the Raven saying "King" "Snow, Jon Snow". Bran or Bloodraven warging the raven? I hope so.

I think that this, the dream and the conversation he has with Tormund are the most important points in this chapter and will eb important later on in the story.

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And why hasn't anyone commented on the raven saying his name? More so, why hasn't anyone comented on the Raven saying "King" "Snow, Jon Snow". Bran or Bloodraven warging the raven? I hope so.

Actually, it said "Corn" and "King" and "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow".

The myth of the Corn King.

Most narratives operate according to the basic structure whereby an initial state of well-being or at least equilibrium is upset and then, with difficulty, restored. So it is no surprise when we see this plot-skeleton in The Lion King. But the film has strong resonances of a more specific myth, that of the Corn King, brought to our attention a century ago by Sir James Frazer in his monumental work The Golden Bough. Deep in the race, Frazer explained, is the belief that the king carries within himself the life and fertility of the land he rules. As such he is a living god. He may be called upon to give his life in a time of famine so that his blood may fertilize the fields anew. (Other movies that make good use of this myth are The Wicker Man and Eye of the Devil.)

The Corn King myth underlies the practices of various primitive peoples and appears in mythology under the names of Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Baal, Tammuz, and Bran the Blessed. The wounding and healing (or the death and resurrection) of the god/king represents (and is believed actually to facilitate) the renewal of vegetation in the Spring after the death of plants in the winter.

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Actually, it said "Corn" and "King" and "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow".

The myth of the Corn King.

Then it means even more than I originally thought, it may not be the raven being warged (although the fact that he might have learned "Jon" and to put "Jon" and "Snow" together, when he never did that with Mormount, still makes me wonder), but it does mean something and I mean something big.

OMG, my head is running with theories, just because of that info. Okay.... Maybe I should start a new topic about them. :)

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Didn't we learn in the prologue and Bran chapters that warging into an animal can leave a remnant of the warger? I guess Bloodraven could be warging into Jon's crow, but I think the better question is whose remnant is it in the crow?

Also, if Jon's a king... he better watch out for Mel.

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These Jon chapters are simply wonderful. Yes, I think his dream has great significance, as well as stressing how alone he really feels (and is), and how much danger he is in. His blade burning red in his fist – what a great image. And the description of the Wall as the wildings passed through was beautiful. I loved reading so much about all the wildings too, so many people with different customs and cultures – those people of the Frozen Shore in their sealskins do seem extra savage. And the relics and tokens they had – I’d love to have some of those! Tormund Giantsbane is wonderful; I hope we see much more of him. Loved all the insults he threw at Jon.

The whole situation is so brilliantly drawn, however, with the Others as a real, stark threat, and Jon preparing to fight them without any real hope that he can succeed. The short letter from Hardhome that arrived at the end was utterly chilling. Terrifying!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I also thought it was lightbringer. Also he dreams that they have all abandoned him - he sent everyone of his friends on the Wall away and now seemes quite alone in Castle Black. There aren't a lot of people there that like him very much, at the moment.

Him screaming "I am the Lord of Winterfell" is either him dealing with the decision he made of staying on the Wall, over being legitimised and proclaimed Lord of Winterfell. Or it could be something else.

And why hasn't anyone commented on the raven saying his name? More so, why hasn't anyone comented on the Raven saying "King" "Snow, Jon Snow". Bran or Bloodraven warging the raven? I hope so.

I think that this, the dream and the conversation he has with Tormund are the most important points in this chapter and will eb important later on in the story.

I wondered if it was lightbringer as well but I didn't like the image of him being armed by black ice...that doesn't sound good.

When he screamed "I am the Lord of Winterfell," I was remembered of him thinking about when he and Robb were children, maybe at the end of ASoS when Stannis offered him Winterfell. He was thinking about how he and Robb used to practice swordplay and they would each shout out that they were some great hero from legend. Then one day he shouted out "I am the Lord of Winterfell" and Robb stopped the play and looked at him and told him that he could never be the Lord of Winterfell because he was bastard born. But, it was one of his great desires growing up that he would become the Lord of Winterfell.

It could mean something or it could be parts of his past melting into part of a vision maybe?

The raven could be prophetic?

When Borroq stopped in the tunnel and turned, he said "brother" Do you think he was saying brother because he recognized Jon as a skinchanger?

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I wonder if the horn Tormund talked about really was a lie. If so, the only other person with a big horn and ancient runes is Euron. He said it could tame dragons...wonder if it could bring down a wall?

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I admit I haven't followed the forums closely enough to know if this has been discussed much, but I wasn't surprised at all to hear that tale about Mance faking that his horn was the Horn of Joramun (and not only because Jon's been told the same before... by Ygritte?). I've thought it was pretty clear all along that if the Horn of Joramun is real, the most likely candidate is the one that was cloven in two and stashed away with all the dragonglass that Ghost found.

Although I am slightly bemused that Jon was so stunned to hear the news. I thought he had the same suspicion I did, since he sent the cloven horn with Sam to Oldtown (if I'm not horribly mistaken).

If my suggestion has just broadsided anyone, maybe we should move the topic to the general forums?

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I thought the same thing originally. I was sure that the horn of joramun was the horn that was found with the dragonglass, but then no more mention was made of it except for Sam taking it with him. It wasn't described the same way the horn of Joramun was described so I just chalked that up to me being wrong and it being a ranger's horn. Still could be though...

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