118 replies to this topic

[Hugor Hill Pentoshi]

Domenceus, on 01 August 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I had started feeling sympathy for Cersei a few books ago when I realized that I felt smug and superior towards her because I didn't put myself in her shoes - as a smart, attractive human being of good birth who was relegated to being just a brood mare for the heinous crime of being born female.  If she'd had more opportunities, she may not have turned out as bitter and manipulative as she did.

With respect, I disagree.

There are plenty of other "smart, attractive human beings of good birth" who didn't get all that they wanted from life - most of them did NOT end up becoming paranoid, murderous tyrants like Cersei who revel in torture and oppression and care nought for the 'smallfolk'! Both men, and women, who suffered more, or had fewer opportunities in life but didn't chose the path of evil that Cersei did.

No need to look far, just consider her own brothers. One is incredibly smart, witty, well-read and cunning, and the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, but just due to a physical disability, is shunned and derided by his own father. The other was incredibly strong, good-looking, good at fighting and not stupid; the world could have been his oyster yet he had to give up everything, give up on all worldly titles, marriage, women other than his sister, and on true-born children, all when he was a young teen - yet neither of the two guys have ended becoming as cruelly sick, twisted, paranoid and almost psychopathic as Cersei.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Gregor's body for sure.  The head is probably something gross and disgusting.  Not sure who. King Robert would be interesting but doubtful since he dies long before Qyburn arrived.

He won't speak and we won't see him for obvious reasons.  Maybe we will see him when he gets killed by someone/something.

I am almost done with the book and will be pissed if I have to wait until Book 6 for the trial by battle.

[ThinPaperWings]

Didn't catch the falling three times thing.  The chapter did remind me of a biblical passage where Israel's impending fate as a nation is compared to a harlot being stripped naked in public and thus humiliated.  Felt about right for the quasi-Medieval Catholic thing George is doing with the faith of the seven.

As far as punishments in ASOIAF go, Cersei got off very light.  (She kept all her limbs, digits, teeth, and her tongue.)  
And she certainly deserved it.  I didn't feel sorry for her because she's still internally defiant.  She hasn't confessed her more serious crimes, and she doesn't really believe she's done anything wrong.  The only encouraging thing was seeing her realize that her beauty was in fact fading.

[FuliginEyes]

That walk of shame was quite uncomfortable, and obviously very sexually degrading... but I still find Cersei one of the most unsympathetic POV characters in this series. I think what happened comes nowhere near to 'what she deserves'.

freakinmayhew, on 30 July 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

It seems very likely to me that The Hound will be the champion for the Faith.

Wow, that would be quite awesome.

eyeheartsansa, on 01 August 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

made me think of the Princess Bride as well.  Was anyone else half expecting the old lady to start yelling booooooo, slime filk, muck, etc.

=)

Hugor Hill Pentoshi, on 03 August 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

With respect, I disagree.

There are plenty of other "smart, attractive human beings of good birth" who didn't get all that they wanted from life - most of them did NOT end up becoming paranoid, murderous tyrants like Cersei who revel in torture and oppression and care nought for the 'smallfolk'! Both men, and women, who suffered more, or had fewer opportunities in life but didn't chose the path of evil that Cersei did.

No need to look far, just consider her own brothers. One is incredibly smart, witty, well-read and cunning, and the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, but just due to a physical disability, is shunned and derided by his own father. The other was incredibly strong, good-looking, good at fighting and not stupid; the world could have been his oyster yet he had to give up everything, give up on all worldly titles, marriage, women other than his sister, and on true-born children, all when he was a young teen - yet neither of the two guys have ended becoming as cruelly sick, twisted, paranoid and almost psychopathic as Cersei.

I completely agree.

[NeilSpoon]

Great chapter. Cersei was my favourite story line in AFFC.

However, it does seem that we wont see the battle between Un-Gregor and, which I hope will be, Sandor. If it is not in this book, it will be a missed oppurtunity I think. We need something epic to happen and this is just extending the cliffhanger from AFFC :/

[Jamie Lannister]

freakinmayhew, on 30 July 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

It seems very likely to me that The Hound will be the champion for the Faith.

That would be incredible.

[Lady Pumpkinhead]

IMO Cersei did not get her just desserts yet. Public humiliation is mild punishment in ASOIAF terms. No whipping? No flaying? No lopped off parts? TAME! In AFFC I thought it would be great if she stayed locked up for life. Her walk of shame doesn't make me feel vindicated for all of her ass-hattery.

[lano]

That walk of Cersei's, I think GRRM is a bit obsessed, with all the scenes of disrobing and sex I have read in this book.  Or he knows sex sells.  I guess he also he wants to show humans being humans, but yeesh.

Also, this Ser Robert is a weak link methinks. Regardless of who or what he is, I find it hard to believe that someone as level headed as Kevan and any others, would just accept this mute guy out of nowhere, especially for the Kingsguard. Hard one to swallow.

[George Snow]

FuliginEyes, on 04 August 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

That walk of shame was quite uncomfortable, and obviously very sexually degrading... but I still find Cersei one of the most unsympathetic POV characters in this series. I think what happened comes nowhere near to 'what she deserves'.

Being forced to walk nude is sexually degrading, and the worst thing you can do to a woman?

Remember that in some parts of the world, nudity is not frowned upon, and women voluntarily go to nude beaches.  

I think there can be a comparison made between Cersei's walk, and Dany's rebirth.  Especially since they were both nude and hairless.  

I actually think that where the walk turned the most humiliating for her, was when the kid said that she sags like his mother.  Before then, she had a rather defiant attitude, but after that she started thinking about how her body had gone downhill after giving birth to 3 kids.  It seems that she was handling all the rude comments pretty well.

I also wonder if having to walk through shit and piss after cutting her foot is going to give her problems later.  

GH

[George Snow]

A Redeemed Hound, on 03 August 2011 - 09:40 AM, said:

Gregor's body for sure.  The head is probably something gross and disgusting.  Not sure who. King Robert would be interesting but doubtful since he dies long before Qyburn arrived.

He won't speak and we won't see him for obvious reasons.  Maybe we will see him when he gets killed by someone/something.

I am almost done with the book and will be pissed if I have to wait until Book 6 for the trial by battle.

I think in a previous book, they actually said (or at least implied) that they were sending one of the dwarf heads to Dorne.  (Yes, it may have been Penny's brother, Groat.)

I think Dorne is going to be pissed, because the sand snakes are coming to King's Landing, and how many 8' knights are there in Westeros?

I think Robert Strong is going to have to face a certain Gravedigger (from parts unknown).  

GH

[zippypoodle]

lano, on 06 August 2011 - 04:06 PM, said:

That walk of Cersei's, I think GRRM is a bit obsessed, with all the scenes of disrobing and sex I have read in this book.  Or he knows sex sells.  I guess he also he wants to show humans being humans, but yeesh.

Also, this Ser Robert is a weak link methinks. Regardless of who or what he is, I find it hard to believe that someone as level headed as Kevan and any others, would just accept this mute guy out of nowhere, especially for the Kingsguard. Hard one to swallow.

At least it's not a bunch of spanking scenes like Robert Jordan's series ended up going to.

Seriously though, I thought Cersei's degradation at the hands of the faith was a very telling point. Religion for some reason often seems to have serious problems with female sexuality and this fanatical high septon is right in line with that.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Quote

She's really not going to hold back on the people involved in making her walk.

Well, I like THAT in Cersei. It's when she hurts people who did her nothing wrong when I hate her.

[Alexia]

Cruella_Da_Oz, on 12 August 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

Well, I like THAT in Cersei. It's when she hurts people who did her nothing wrong when I hate her.

Agree.  Personally, I'm hoping she blasts the Sept of Baelor to kingdom come with wildfire in TWOW...

[George Snow]

There was a recent interview with GRRM on EW.com where he discusses the walk.

I'll warn you that there are spoilers in that interview from further in the book, so don't go to that interview, until you have finished reading the book.  Here is the text regarding this chapter:

Quote

One of my favorite chapters, perhaps of the whole series, was Cersei’s walk of shame. I was riveted.
That was an interesting chapter to write, and based on actual medieval events. Jane Shore, mistress of King Edward IV, was punished that way after Edward died. It’s going to be a controversial scene when it comes out — is it misogynistic or feminist? It wasn’t a punishment ever inflicted on men. It was a punishment directed at women to break their pride. And Cersei is defined by her pride.

So, this is drawn from historical events.

Also seems to be a parallel between what happened to Cersei, and what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

GH

Edited by George Snow, 12 August 2011 - 10:57 AM.

[Alexia]

George Snow, on 12 August 2011 - 10:55 AM, said:

There was a recent interview with GRRM on EW.com where he discusses the walk.

I'll warn you that there are spoilers in that interview from further in the book, so don't go to that interview, until you have finished reading the book.  Here is the text regarding this chapter:



So, this is drawn from historical events.

Also seems to be a parallel between what happened to Cersei, and what Tywin did to his father's mistress.

GH

I'll bang my drum again.  Jane Shore was not punished like that.  She was paraded through the streets in her kirtle, which is a long underdress.  From a modern perspective it would be like parading a woman through the streets in her slip.

[ferthepoet]

I still do not understand why she went with the walk, she knows she still has to stand trial for the other crimes she did not confess to, the chapter also makes reference to her meeting with Kevan at least one additional time after Cersei I, why did she not ask him about the kinsguard then and risk it all in the trial by combat

[Zordrath]

The way I understood it, Kevan would only tell Tommen to name Ser Robert Strong to the Kingsguard if Cersei agreed to the walk. Since Cersei had no way of communicating with Tommen directly and Qyburn doesn't have the authority, Cersei wouldn't have had her invincible Kingsguard champion without Kevan, and Kevan wanted her to walk.

[Tammy]

Hugor Hill Pentoshi, on 03 August 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

With respect, I disagree.

There are plenty of other "smart, attractive human beings of good birth" who didn't get all that they wanted from life - most of them did NOT end up becoming paranoid, murderous tyrants like Cersei who revel in torture and oppression and care nought for the 'smallfolk'! Both men, and women, who suffered more, or had fewer opportunities in life but didn't chose the path of evil that Cersei did.

No need to look far, just consider her own brothers. One is incredibly smart, witty, well-read and cunning, and the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, but just due to a physical disability, is shunned and derided by his own father. The other was incredibly strong, good-looking, good at fighting and not stupid; the world could have been his oyster yet he had to give up everything, give up on all worldly titles, marriage, women other than his sister, and on true-born children, all when he was a young teen - yet neither of the two guys have ended becoming as cruelly sick, twisted, paranoid and almost psychopathic as Cersei.

  As much as I felt for her walking in shame, I couldn't notice how she remained so prideful throughout the entire thing so it didn't have it's intended effect really until the end, but whether we'll see any change or acceptance of responsibility for all the havoc she has caused, well...

I did like the thought about Ned though, the realization that that one act caused a domino effect that has put her and everyone else she loves right here.

The North remembers and it's not going to be over so quickly no matter how strong GregorStein or Robert the Strong is.

[SeanF]

Tammy, on 25 August 2011 - 12:19 AM, said:

  As much as I felt for her walking in shame, I couldn't notice how she remained so prideful throughout the entire thing so it didn't have it's intended effect really until the end, but whether we'll see any change or acceptance of responsibility for all the havoc she has caused, well...

I did like the thought about Ned though, the realization that that one act caused a domino effect that has put her and everyone else she loves right here.

The North remembers and it's not going to be over so quickly no matter how strong GregorStein or Robert the Strong is.

The chapter was definitely uncomfortable reading.  I certainly wouldn't have felt uncomfortable had the chapter involved Cersei being sentenced to death, and sent to the block, but sexual humiliation is something else.  I don't, however, think it's at all gratuitous, and it's one of the best chapters in the book, IMHO.

[Myrish swan]

The Bare Hand, on 27 July 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:

If thats all the punishment she is gonna get for everything she has done I will be very disappointed. A nude walk and some insults pffft

And herin lies the brilliance of the walk itself as a literary device. On the walk Cersei is humiliated on a sexual level, her pride is broken, as well as her autonomy and self worth. Psychologically, she is crushed and destroyed and undeniably violated.

And yet.... physically speaking, she is not harmed. She is not subject to intense physical violence, as Theon greyjoy was. Thus, GRRM gets the opportunity to sadistically humiliate Cersei on a specifically sexual level, yet can simultaneously make it easy for readers not to pity her. After all, people can claim, Cersei was never even physically harmed! It was, as some have claimed, just a walk. Thus, GRRM makes it so that a. Cersei can be shown being humiliated and degraded, without many readers feeling compelled to feel true pity for her, and b. readers can afterwards claim that Cersei deserved "that and more"-- that her punishment was not enouth. Thus, he assures that most readers will not only approve of Cersei's punishment, they will be rooting for more punishment and humiliation for her in the future. Which, believe me, is coming. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been reading the wrong books.  

The Bare Hand, on 27 July 2011 - 02:04 AM, said:

If thats all the punishment she is gonna get for everything she has done I will be very disappointed. A nude walk and some insults pffft

Dude, are you blind, deaf, and dumb? Cersei's downfall will be long, slow, agonizing, and full of sexually themed humiliations (not unlike this one.) She will destroy everything she loves and herself. And she will eventually be strangled by her beloved brother, whose domestic violence will be made to look like heroism.

That Jaime= valanquar is beyond obvious, as is everything else about Cersei's cliched, sexist, misogynistic character and her (often illogical and obvious) train wreck of a story arc at this point.
This just in-- after getting fat, ugly, and humiliating herself by attempting to still use sex to get ahead after she's hideous, Cersei will be overthrown by Danerys. But not before (stupidly) causing the deaths of her two remaining children (in a way that will lead readers to scoff at her stupidity, and not pity her at all for her loss since it was due to her own folly. And worse (at least in the author's estimation, since he seems to see unnatractive and aged women-- generally all those over the age of, like, 30--as disgusting and unworthy to live)she will get old, fat, hideous, and saggy. No doubt we will be treated to a 4 paragraph description of Cersei's sagging "teats" as we were with Lysa    )

Then Jaime will find her, and feel great disgust (perhaps mixed with queasy pity) for his pitiful former lover. He will then decide it's valanquar time! And yet another man will strangle yet another cheatin' lady to the applause and general approval of audiences (almost) everywhere. Yet these books aren't sexist at all. No siree bob!

Edited by Myrish swan, 26 August 2011 - 09:32 AM.