401 replies to this topic

[denstorebog]

Calm down guys. As someone said above, this just serves the purpose of having Jon resurrected. A convenient plot event to fulfill a prophecy integral to the series. I'm already so absolutely certain of it that it actually bums me out how many fake deaths we have in a series that I originally became interested in *because* it dared eschew such contrivances. Those days are long gone and now every other chapter ends with someone passing out.

[NymeriaStark]

Lya Lamora, on 19 July 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:

Jon is dead, but he'll be reborn as Azor. It fits- the bleeding stars (Ser Patrek), the salt (Marsh's tears), the smoke ("In the cold night air the wound was smoking.") I think the Red Woman will definitely bring Jon back Dondarrion style, but he might not even be Jon anymore. He might be a kick ass, Lightbringer-wielding, son-of-a-Stark-and-Targaryen reborn savior of the world.

All praise Red Rahloo!

I never bought in to the whole Jon = AA thing (I'm a fan of it being Dany - period)... but after reading this chapter I got to thinking & discussing w/ a friend.  Now, this is kind of crackpot - and I don't take credit for it (the aforementioned friend came up with it):

If Jon is reborn a la Thoros-of-Myr style by the red witch, I can see her using her shape-changing magic and turning in to Ygritte.  In the very beginning of the book she says You know nothing, Jon Snow and later he thinks she's Ygritte for a moment.

"What's the point of this?" you ask?  Well, if she's seducing Jon - by pretending to be Ygritte - and he realizes what happening, I can see him un-sheathing Longclaw and plunging it in to Mel's heart (still seeing her as Ygritte, though); all the fiery powers will pour in to the sword, making it Lightbringer.

Long stretch or a ring of truth?   I've never given much credence to crackpot theories unless they "feel" right to me.  (R+L=J has always felt right.  Bloodraven = Coldhands has always felt more right than Benjen - even though we learned it was the 3EC instead of CH, close enough right?)   Something about this feels too right.  What do you think?

[Kirazi]

I think Jon dead and will be brought back to life via Melisandre. If Thoros can do it, surely Melisandre can resurrect someone. This will get him out of his vow to the Nights Watch so he can live his destiny.

And I think Ramsay's letter is a fake too. He probably wrote it early - before the battles even began.

And I hope the wildings tear apart Marsh and everyone involved! and wtf is Wick?

[Branna]

No way is Jon dead. Too many prophesies about him. For example, Dany in the house of the undying:

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright on his dead face, gray lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons...bride of death...

--This to me implies that Jon must be alive...long enough for him to meet Dany and "fill the air with sweetness". Who else could the blue flower be referring to?
pages 700-707 AFFC

Why build up a mystery about his parentage just to kill him off?

Plot armor, plot armor, plot armor.

Also, the Red Wedding, Ned's Death...etc, those horrifying deaths didn't happen in a cliffhanger. GRRM knew it was important to follow up their deaths with confirmations of their deaths.

Imagine how pissed off we'd have been if Thrones ended with the Arya chapter in which Ned died. There'd have been years of people theorising how he wasn't dead...and then a hell of a lot of VERY angry people if he wasn't alive when Clash came out. I think Jon's death in this one is going to be more like Brienne's....he isn't.

Whether due to his "smoking wounds" (Melisandre resurrection), or him just needing some TLC for his wounds, he will definitely be around in Winds of Winter.

[Noctame]

What if the prophecy of Fire & Ice has nothing to do with Dany? I mean, the witch said she would not be able to give birth to any child unless whacky cataclysmicly weird things occured. What would be the point of putting a barren queen on Westeros' throne?

If Aegon (despite being a child bleh!) isn't a fake - and mymy aren't we all distrustful of George LOLZ. Can't trust a thing he claims! - then he's young enough to have lots of kids. And that would make him ice.

And I can remember a lovely young lady who is set to become an heir to both Winterfell and the Eyrie who needs a knight in shining armour. Sansa Stark could be the 'ice'.

Dany's part in all this might be purely to stop the Others and safeguard Westeroes during this Long Night style winter. Tyrion has thought of joining the NW, he could be the first and only dwarf ever to ride a dragon - which I'm sure would make him happier than anything. Dany's chosen to ride Drogon - and I would think three dragons (no matter who rode the third - my guess being Mormant) could hold the wall. Just set the edge of the forest on fire and arm the battlements with wildlings and foreign armies and wait for the frigid bastards to attack xP.

Anyhoozles. That's my theory. Aegon = Fire. Sansa = Ice. Lots of babies from that union - and its been foreshadowed enough that Sansa WILL have her knight in shining armour. No matter how much I secretly hoped it'd be the Hound (what can I say? I had a beauty and the beast moment)

[DornishHighlander]

Further proof GRRM dislikes us getting close to his characters always gotta bring the reality check down on us, still was freeking awesome to read. Et Tu Bowen Marsh!

[Aganerral]

While with GRRM at teh author it certainly is possible that Jon is actually dead, as a reader I'm pretty confident that this is not the end of JOn's story.  It's one thing to swerve us with Ned at the end of hte first book, a bit different to ivnest so much time in one character over 4 books (skipping AFFC since Jon wasn't really in that) then do this.  As others have referenced, Jon has a lot of plot armor, plus we still need a viewpoint to tell us what's happening at the wall and the Others.  Isn't GRRM on record as saying that he doesn't want to introduce more POVs?

[Gwywen]

Isn't this "Jon is not really dead" just wishful thinking?
I'm still in denial though. I was so pissed when he was stabbed, three, four(?) times.
I don't even want to think he's dead. I refuse to believe he's dead.
And willing to wait another six years to see Mel bring him back to life.
I'm so sorry I told myself to just read this one Jon chapter before going to sleep, yesterday.
Might be obvious, I didn't sleep at all.
Instead, I wept.

[malarky1231]

NymeriaStark, on 20 July 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:

I never bought in to the whole Jon = AA thing (I'm a fan of it being Dany - period)... but after reading this chapter I got to thinking & discussing w/ a friend.  Now, this is kind of crackpot - and I don't take credit for it (the aforementioned friend came up with it):

If Jon is reborn a la Thoros-of-Myr style by the red witch, I can see her using her shape-changing magic and turning in to Ygritte.  In the very beginning of the book she says You know nothing, Jon Snow and later he thinks she's Ygritte for a moment.

"What's the point of this?" you ask?  Well, if she's seducing Jon - by pretending to be Ygritte - and he realizes what happening, I can see him un-sheathing Longclaw and plunging it in to Mel's heart (still seeing her as Ygritte, though); all the fiery powers will pour in to the sword, making it Lightbringer.

Long stretch or a ring of truth?   I've never given much credence to crackpot theories unless they "feel" right to me.  (R+L=J has always felt right.  Bloodraven = Coldhands has always felt more right than Benjen - even though we learned it was the 3EC instead of CH, close enough right?)   Something about this feels too right.  What do you think?

I came to this conclusion independently. Except I think Mel will ask Jon to kill her, and not resort to any illusions.

[Jerritus]

This releases Jon from his vows with Night's Watch. Till death he served, and once he gets ressurrected, he'll be free to become the King of the World, Azor Ahai, Prince That Was Promised, Dragon Rider, Queen of England, King-Beyond-The-Wall, Jon the Conquerer and all other cool titles that he will claim.

[malarky1231]

Jon the Warg, Jon the Undying, Jon Connor, The Night King, UnJon, Jon Targaryen, Jon Stark. Slayer of the Undead, Kickass, Captain Westeros, the list goes on and on

[The Oncoming Storm]

Holy fuck, he didn't even have time to say "Et tu Brute". And owen was crying. So sad.

I don't think Stannis is dead though. If the Boltons reached his army and won, they'd have Theon and Jeyne too. Also, poor Mance in trouble AGAIN.

[AnotherDeadStark]

King_In_The_North, on 15 July 2011 - 04:49 PM, said:

BTW did that stabbing scene reminded anyone of Julius Caesar being stabbed in the senate by his fellow senators (with Bowen Marsh = Brutus)?

Definitely had the same thought. The scene at the end of Rome season 1 came into my head


Ramsay's letter is a lot of lying with a few maybe half-truths thrown into the mix, IMO.

Part of me hopes Jon is fully dead, not coming back - simply because we have had a lot of characters die and come back and it's time for some of them to stay dead now. That being said, I really liked Jon and would like to see him come back. Kind of torn here. I guess I'll be somewhat satisfied with either option. Still, we wont know for a few years and this was quite depressing to read

Oh well, the next chapter awaits!

[Jerritus]

AnotherDeadStark, on 23 July 2011 - 01:43 AM, said:

Definitely had the same thought. The scene at the end of Rome season 1 came into my head


Ramsay's letter is a lot of lying with a few maybe half-truths thrown into the mix, IMO.

Part of me hopes Jon is fully dead, not coming back - simply because we have had a lot of characters die and come back and it's time for some of them to stay dead now. That being said, I really liked Jon and would like to see him come back. Kind of torn here. I guess I'll be somewhat satisfied with either option. Still, we wont know for a few years and this was quite depressing to read

Oh well, the next chapter awaits!

If Jon is in fact Azor Ahai, then his death was required to fulfill a prophesy and him coming back to life won't seem as much of a plot armor at work as it did with some of the other characters.

[Kohaku]

George if you ever read this, I love u, and hate you at the same time. Killing Jon? You are so cruel, but I'm hoping seeing resurrected, but I really doubt it, too many resus, this is getting like Dragon Ball.

[Andhaira]

Why aren't you all discussing the most important revelation about this chapter? Jon was about to break his vows. He was already straining them quite hard, but now he was going to lead a host of wildlings against the Boltons, completely getting involved in the affairs of the realm. His brothers did what they had to do. Bowen Marsh is a hero. Remember, the penalty for those that break the vow is death, same as for any deserter. The Nights Watchmen were doing their duty, just as Ned Stark did his when he executed Gared.

I have to say though, this was completely out of character for Jon. He almost broke his vows in AGoT, when he set out to join Robb. But since then he appeared to have given up on affairs of the realm. Why this sudden switch then? For Arya? But why? If he could turn back from Robb, why not from Arya?

The ending was just a cheap cliffhanger. It's like GRRM wanted to end his book on a massive cliffhanger to keep people wanting more, and this was the only way he could do it.

There is no way Jon is dead. Melisandre will heal his wounds, like Moqorro healed VBictarions hand. At the very most, Jon will return as UnJon. I truly wish this weren't so, that this was the end of Jon, but sadly we wont be rid of him as yet. Mel saw him in her visions, he is too important to the plot to die.

However, I would settle for the next best thing: That there wont be any Jon viewpoints again. We can get Melisandre as a hardcore POV to tell us whats going on in the North. Plus, there is also Theon.

Regarding the letter, which Jon should just have burned and ignored, it is obvious Ramsay is lying. Remember what happened to Davos, who we also heard had died in AFFC. Thing is that the odds are stacked against the Boltons. Manderly is just itching to betray them. As is Whoresbane Umber. Karstarks betrayal of Stannis has been revealed.

No way Stannis can loose.

Anyhow, the in short this chapter proves that Jon was unfit to be Commander of the Nights Watch. He made some ill judged decisions earlier, but this was the worst of all and it rightfully got him stabbed. He deserves nothing but execution by Westerosi law.

[SpaceChampion]

I wonder if Mance wrote that letter to toy with Jon and see if he would break his vows.

But no, Jon is not unfit to be LC.  He was the only one seeing the truth that 100,000 dead wildings and giants and mammoths etc. is a gift to the Others you do not want to give.  He explained that dozens of times of Yarwick and Marsh.  His only mistake -- maybe -- is in that last chapter deciding to go south.  On the other hand, when your liege lord summons you, doesn't he HAVE to go?  If he is not taking part in politics truly, at least to the letter of the law, he can't choose to obey the commands of Stannis and not the commands of Bolton.  His mistake is in not explaining that to his First Steward and First Builder.   A commander does not always need to explain, but it would have been good politics.  But he was thinking of politics went thinking he should have talking to Queen Selyse first.  Now asking the wildings to go with him... seems like a mistake, but it is not 100% certain his intention was to fight Ramsay.  He didn't explain his intentions at all, which i credit to being due to GRRM's massive fake-out with this chapter.  Otherwise, the chapter does not in any way seem in character for Jon.  Therefore, I don't believe it.

Edited by SpaceChampion, 24 July 2011 - 12:13 PM.

[Branna]

Shakey, on 19 July 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

Jon is dead.  

It's been two books since we had a major character death.  GRRM is reminding us that no one is safe.  No one.

GRRM is not an idiot. Killing Ned was different. Killing Jon would influence people to stop reading altogether. And if Jon was dead, we would have found out in this book; if it was a real permanent death, he would have made sure we new it right away, not leaving us speculating for years about how he's not dead. GRRM always confirmed real deaths within the book before; Ned's head on the wall, what happened to Robb and Grey Wind at the Red Wedding. There's a certain point where you don't want to alienate your audience and killing Jon on a cliffhanger would do that.

[Lazlo Woodbine]

KyleLitke, on 14 July 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

For what it's worth, it certainly doesn't look good for him. At all. And he's probably dead. But I can think of two ways he would "survive".

1), right after he blacked out and the fourth dagger stabbed him, someone shows up and stops them, and Jon is severely injured and dying but not quite dead, with the potential to survive it.

2), Melisandre pulls a Thoros and resurrects him ala Beric.

It certainly doesn't look good, but the last thing we see is him blacking out after getting stabbed. Not quite the same as Catelyn's chapter ending with her throat being slit, followed by definitive confirmation that she's dead (although she would come back, of course...still, Stoneheart is almost a shadow of her).

A third way is that Jon could warg into Ghost, or possible even another human if he reached out desperately enough.  Personally I'm going for the Melisandre ressurection route.  There's absolutely no way that Jon is dead and gone for the rest of the series.  Completely agre with Branna's post above.  Any real death would be final and not left as a cliff hanger.

[aegon the unworthy]

Come on guys...
We had 13 chapters containing the quantitiy of turnips, pease and porridge Night Watch has.
If GRRM REALLY wanted to kill Jon for real, he could do it in chapter 2 and spare us all the tedium : DAY1:  Stannis (grinding his teeth): "You could bring the north to me, bastard boy!"
                Jon (placidly): "I'm a man of the Night Watch:"


         DAY2: JON: "Currently the Watch owns three thousand two hundred sixty one turnips, four tons of cauliflower, 20000 smallclothes, etc. etc., "

         DAY3:  Stannis (grinding his teeth): "You could bring the north to me, bastard boy!"
                Jon (placidly): "I'm a man of the Night Watch:"

                      ...ad infinitum...

                           (or until chapter 13)