173 replies to this topic

[Sanctume]

Guinevere Seaworth, on 16 July 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

I do admit that Pycelle lasted alot longer in the series.

Varys.  So this confirms that he wants a Targaryen back on the throne.  Was Viserys and Dany a feint so Aegon can grow up undetected?  I don't think anybody expected that Dany would hatch 3 dragons.  Or was Aegon always option b?

Party 1. Varys + Illyrio play the game of thrones
but that does not mean their plan will go accordingly
and their goal is to put a Targ back on the Iron Throne.

V & I wants a "just" ruler and they have 2 pieces at least
1. Dany
2. Baby Aegon

Re: Dany -- they planned out to get an Army before Westeros
Via Viserys, Khal Drogo, 3 Dragon Eggs.

Party 2.  The warlock that aborter Dany's son with Khal Drogo.
And I'm unclear it whoever gave her the prophecy warning is part of this party.

I don't believe Party 1 will know how will Dany react or even survive Party 2's interference.

But Dany Survived, with 10,000+ army/followers. But I don't think they expected she stay put in Mereen.

The game of thrones is played out--but Tyrion happens with help from Varys.
Tyrion became Party 1's asset.  Killed Joff, Killed Tywin.

But Tyrion is also knowledgable of the game of thrones.  He's the one who told Baby Aegon a better way to play
by starting his Westeros conquest via Dorne while Dany figures out how to get out of her own mess in Mereen.

[Travis of Myr]

BarrileteCosmico, on 16 July 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

Option A seems likeliest. He is the heir to the throne, I believe, and was groomed for command with septas, maesters and a hand. Dany and Viserys never had either of those, even though they should have.

I don't understand how New-Aegon is the heir.  Aerys was alive when Rhaegar was killed on the trident.  So wouldn't that make Viserys (and then Dany) the heir-apparent.  New-Aegon would come only after Dany dies (as the true heir anyway), right?

I thought the book ended well enough.  Not in my top 2 in the series so far, as I had hoped it would be.

[Swordswench]

Yes, Daenerys is the first in line to the Iron Throne, then Aegon.

It is known.

But I suspect Varys didn't intend for Dany to be very helpful to his cause. Maybe hatch some eggs and that'd be that. Possibly he'd acquired them for Viserys, but when it became obvious good old "wake the dragon" had a little too much of dear old dad in him, decided to give them away to Dany as wedding presents and see what comes of it.

Which makes me wonder if he/Illyrio doesn't have a cache of dragon eggs hidden away somewhere. If they're so precious that selling them would buy an army large enough to invade Westeros and take the throne, a navy large enough to transport them all, and the weapons to arm them all, then I can't see Varys risking them on Dany if he didn't have more to give to Aegon.

The irony for me is that seeing what a little shit the well-trained Aegon is, even after all GRRM's done to bore me to tears with her, knowing that Varys is pushing Aegon makes me root for Dany again, just because.

[Calesta]

I'm wondering if Daenerys and her brother were even part of the original plan? Dany did talk about when the knight takeing care of them died they spent a lot of time running, hungry, no place to stay till Illyrio took them in. Didn't seem planed but more of an afterthought.

[aegon the unworthy]

Swordswench, on 20 July 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yes, Daenerys is the first in line to the Iron Throne, then Aegon.

It is known.

It is *NOT* known.

In Westeros the line of succession goes like it goes in most medieval European monarchies- by primogeniture.
So, 1. in line -ELDEST son (in this case Rhaegar)
If he dies childless- the crown goes to his younger brothers and sisters (viserys, than Dany)
If he has living children, as we are led to believe, they take precedence over their aunts and uncles. So that makes Aegon first in line for the Iron Throne, if he is really Rhaegar's son (methinks not, btw.)
That's the whole reason for Stannis' claim on the throne- Joff, Tommen and the rest not being Robert's children, so he would be Robert's heir then.

Edited by aegon the unworthy, 21 July 2011 - 02:42 AM.

[Kirazi]

Interesting end. The whole book I was wondering where Varys was! I like that the kids were the 'little birds' and that Varys has set this up from the beginning. He wanted there to be peace until the Targs were ready, and once they were, for westeros to be in chaos and alliances questioning.

I believe that Aegon is truly a Targ, it can't be common for a child of the right age to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes. It's gotta be real...

And cersei seems almost like a shell, like she really did lose that she held most dear.

[Swordswench]

aegon the unworthy, on 21 July 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

It is *NOT* known.

In Westeros the line of succession goes like it goes in most medieval European monarchies- by primogeniture.
So, 1. in line -ELDEST son (in this case Rhaegar)
If he dies childless- the crown goes to his younger brothers and sisters (viserys, than Dany)
If he has living children, as we are led to believe, they take precedence over their aunts and uncles. So that makes Aegon first in line for the Iron Throne, if he is really Rhaegar's son (methinks not, btw.)
That's the whole reason for Stannis' claim on the throne- Joff, Tommen and the rest not being Robert's children, so he would be Robert's heir then.

You're right, you're right. Dany's been the only legitimate heir for so long, I wasn't thinking right last night. That's what I get for staying up late!    

I wonder what proof of legitimacy they have to Aegon's claim. It's not like Westeros is just going to agree that Bonnie Prince Aegon is who he says he is. Varys must have some sort of proof up his sleeve.

The whole thing is a mess anyway, since the Targaryens won the throne through conquering Westeros. Personally I think the Baratheons have as legitimate a claim to rule as the Targaryen's. But that's how these kinds of wars got going in European history as well.

[Sanctume]

Swordswench, on 20 July 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

Yes, Daenerys is the first in line to the Iron Throne, then Aegon.

It is known.

But I suspect Varys didn't intend for Dany to be very helpful to his cause. Maybe hatch some eggs and that'd be that. Possibly he'd acquired them for Viserys, but when it became obvious good old "wake the dragon" had a little too much of dear old dad in him, decided to give them away to Dany as wedding presents and see what comes of it.

Which makes me wonder if he/Illyrio doesn't have a cache of dragon eggs hidden away somewhere. If they're so precious that selling them would buy an army large enough to invade Westeros and take the throne, a navy large enough to transport them all, and the weapons to arm them all, then I can't see Varys risking them on Dany if he didn't have more to give to Aegon.

The irony for me is that seeing what a little shit the well-trained Aegon is, even after all GRRM's done to bore me to tears with her, knowing that Varys is pushing Aegon makes me root for Dany again, just because.

Dany and Viserys are pure targs.  Better chance for dragons to hatch with pures.

Whereas baby Aegon is half-Targ only.

[Sanctume]

aegon the unworthy, on 21 July 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

It is *NOT* known.

In Westeros the line of succession goes like it goes in most medieval European monarchies- by primogeniture.
So, 1. in line -ELDEST son (in this case Rhaegar)
If he dies childless- the crown goes to his younger brothers and sisters (viserys, than Dany)
If he has living children, as we are led to believe, they take precedence over their aunts and uncles. So that makes Aegon first in line for the Iron Throne, if he is really Rhaegar's son (methinks not, btw.)
That's the whole reason for Stannis' claim on the throne- Joff, Tommen and the rest not being Robert's children, so he would be Robert's heir then.

Was Rhaegar's officially married to Elia though?  If not, then baby Aegon is just a noble bastard.
But where did R+A = J theory came from?

Targs have been know to have polygamy though, right?

[Sanctume]

Is the master of the coin, heading to Bravos?
Is he in Arya's mental list?

[DaeneryStormBorn]

Sanctume, on 21 July 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Was Rhaegar's officially married to Elia though?  If not, then baby Aegon is just a noble bastard.
But where did R+A = J theory came from?

Targs have been know to have polygamy though, right?

Yes they are married, do a reread or go to R+L =  J discussion in general forum.

[malarky1231]

Winter Is Here!

[Calesta]

I am wondering if Varys know the truth of Jon Snow? It seems that he would have with his little birds had at least an idea if it is true that R+L=J

[Andhaira]

How does Kevan suspect what Robert Strong is? I thought the Lords and Ladies of the Seven Kingdoms did not belive in magic. So why is he so quick to belive that Gregor Cleganes corpse has been brought back to life? This really bugs me.

Anyhow, i am really beginning to hate Varys now. His end cannot come soon enough. I mean, how dare he presume to decide who rules in Westeros? He wasn't even born in Westeros. He is playing a most dangerous game and is in way over his head.

[limbstan]

Andhaira, on 24 July 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

How does Kevan suspect what Robert Strong is? I thought the Lords and Ladies of the Seven Kingdoms did not belive in magic. So why is he so quick to belive that Gregor Cleganes corpse has been brought back to life? This really bugs me.

Anyhow, i am really beginning to hate Varys now. His end cannot come soon enough. I mean, how dare he presume to decide who rules in Westeros? He wasn't even born in Westeros. He is playing a most dangerous game and is in way over his head.

In over his head? He's been a master at this game throughout the series. The only better player may be Littlefinger.

[Swordswench]

Andhaira, on 24 July 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

How does Kevan suspect what Robert Strong is? I thought the Lords and Ladies of the Seven Kingdoms did not belive in magic. So why is he so quick to belive that Gregor Cleganes corpse has been brought back to life? This really bugs me.

I can imagine Kevan constantly speculating with Pycelle about just what the hell is going on the dungeons with Qyburn lately -- especially with Cersei locked up and unable to run interference for him for so long. I'm sure most of the Red Keep is murmuring about it. How could they not?

[aegon the unworthy]

Sanctume, on 21 July 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

Dany and Viserys are pure targs.  Better chance for dragons to hatch with pures.

Whereas baby Aegon is half-Targ only.

¸

Yep, actually true, since Aerys II married his sister.
But it shouldn't affect the order of succession though.

Edited by aegon the unworthy, 25 July 2011 - 02:22 AM.

[aegon the unworthy]

Sanctume, on 21 July 2011 - 10:58 AM, said:

Was Rhaegar's officially married to Elia though?  If not, then baby Aegon is just a noble bastard.
But where did R+A = J theory came from?

Targs have been know to have polygamy though, right?

Rhaegar was officially married to Elia, so Aegon would be legit. IF his claim could be proved, which I don't think likely. Who's gonna vouch for him, Varys? Nobody trusts a eunuch;).
But R in R+L=J wasn't officially married to L, so their offspring wouldn't be legit, he'd be a-Blackfyre, I guess (just kidding).

[aegon the unworthy]

Calesta, on 20 July 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'm wondering if Daenerys and her brother were even part of the original plan? Dany did talk about when the knight takeing care of them died they spent a lot of time running, hungry, no place to stay till Illyrio took them in. Didn't seem planed but more of an afterthought.

Yep, me too.
If the whole Aegon shebang is true.
In that case Varys , as an arguable Targ loyalist (or a moral man interested in the benefit of the people yeah right), planned to hide baby Aegon and produce him later as heir to the throne, but then fate intervened and Dany and Viserys also got away.
So, for whom Varys  really intended to sit the Iron throne, and who is purely a feint?
I would definitely agree with your theory, because Aegon was systematically trained and educated. Also, Illyrio practicaly admits to Tyrion that events concerning Dany have surprised him, and that he didn't put any store in Viserys, let alone in Dany in the beginning (aside from noticing her good looks).

[Drogon's Mother]

Theano, on 16 July 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

Am I the only person who wonders whether Varys really is a eunuch?  He makes himself out to be all about the realm, and tells Ned about being cut, and how he hates magic (but wants Daenerys with her dragons back?)... but then in this epilogue it has his voice deepening.  And he can imitate a deep voice when he's pretending to be a soldier, as well as having stubble--not a beard, but stubble, which seems like it would be tough to do with medieval makeup.

I just wonder if in all of his ability to act, to put on disguises, etc., if Varys the eunuch isn't simply one more disguise.

I think varys is one of the faceless men, that's why he can change his looks and his voice, but I could be mistaken.