173 replies to this topic

[The WaterDancer Knight]

aegon the unworthy, on 21 July 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

It is *NOT* known.
In Westeros the line of succession goes like it goes in most medieval European monarchies- by primogeniture.
So, 1. in line -ELDEST son (in this case Rhaegar)
If he dies childless- the crown goes to his younger brothers and sisters (viserys, than Dany)
If he has living children, as we are led to believe, they take precedence over their aunts and uncles. So that makes Aegon first in line for the Iron Throne, if he is really Rhaegar's son (methinks not, btw.)
That's the whole reason for Stannis' claim on the throne- Joff, Tommen and the rest not being Robert's children, so he would be Robert's heir then.

You're wrong. Primogeniture means the eldest son still aliveat the death of the king. When Rhaegar died before his father it made his brother Viserys the heir of the kingdom. But when Viserys died, Aegon had a claim as strong as Daenerys to be the rightful heir. The first Dance of Dragons did not resolve if women can be heir by themselves.


If Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna he is still a Snow and not a Blakfyre. Blakfyre was the name chosen by pure blood Tragaryens bastards. Other Targaryens bastards take thebastard's name from their motherland Like Bittersteel and Bloodraven both from Riverland mothers and both named Rivers. For Lyanna Stark it is Snow.

[ZombieWife]

Unreliable Narrator, on 17 July 2011 - 08:57 AM, said:

I'm surprised nobody has brought up what is, IMHO, an even bigger shocker, there's yet another hidden Targaryan, and this one's in the Red Keep itself: Balerion the Black Kitten/the old black tomcat is now out to get Tommen! One of these days, Ser Pounce won't be around to protect him, and yet another hidden member of the Targaryan dynasty will be free to seek his revenge.

Why else would GRRM go to the trouble of listing Ser Pounce, Lady Whiskers and Boots as members of Tommen's Court, if not for the coming day of reckoning?

Am I the only one who thinks Arya is in King's Landing and her favorite tom is but a warg skin?    If so, who would her target be?

[Drogon's Mother]

ZombieWife, on 25 July 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks Arya is in King's Landing and her favorite tom is but a warg skin?    If so, who would her target be?

Yeah you're the only one. Arya is in Bravos with the faceless men. REad much.

[ZombieWife]

Drogon, on 25 July 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Yeah you're the only one. Arya is in Bravos with the faceless men. REad much.

She was in Bravos at her last chapter.  Time has passed since then.  (And there are other reasons for my thinking this.)  

Would appreciate less rudeness.  Thank you.  

Edited by ZombieWife, 26 July 2011 - 12:02 AM.

[aegon the unworthy]

The WaterDancer Knight, on 25 July 2011 - 10:37 PM, said:

You're wrong. Primogeniture means the eldest son still aliveat the death of the king. When Rhaegar died before his father it made his brother Viserys the heir of the kingdom. But when Viserys died, Aegon had a claim as strong as Daenerys to be the rightful heir. The first Dance of Dragons did not resolve if women can be heir by themselves.


If Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna he is still a Snow and not a Blakfyre. Blakfyre was the name chosen by pure blood Tragaryens bastards. Other Targaryens bastards take thebastard's name from their motherland Like Bittersteel and Bloodraven both from Riverland mothers and both named Rivers. For Lyanna Stark it is Snow.

If what you are saying is true and that the fact that Rhaegar died before Aerys makes Viserys heir ( i think not in Westeros, although I admit that nI'm not certain, but there are RL cases of monarchies that used that system of succession- early medieval Hungary, for example,) than you're right.
Can you clarify this, and cite some examples?
I have to say I'm inclined to believe Tyrion, and he DOES say that Aegon has a better claim than Dany.

As for the rest, there is a reason why everyone (except you) uses R+L=J etc and not full names. There are people that do not want to speculate about as yet unrevealed aspects of the plot, and it should be respected. And what part of "just kidding" did you not comprehend?

Edited by aegon the unworthy, 26 July 2011 - 07:55 AM.

[The BlackWolf]

Andhaira, on 24 July 2011 - 07:23 AM, said:

How does Kevan suspect what Robert Strong is? I thought the Lords and Ladies of the Seven Kingdoms did not belive in magic. So why is he so quick to belive that Gregor Cleganes corpse has been brought back to life? This really bugs me.

Did anybody see the skull before it was sent off to Dorne?  General concensus in Kings Landing could be that Gregor MAY be dead, and a skull was sent south.  There may be reasonable doubt if Gregor was actually beheaded, and there can't be many guys of his size that you would suspect of being under all that armour.

limbstan, on 24 July 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

In over his head? He's been a master at this game throughout the series. The only better player may be Littlefinger.

This is, for me, the most important point that hasn't yet been raised- that bond between Varys and Littlefinger.  I was hoping Varys would turn up in the East (never mind that theory) but they were obviously playing the Game together since the very start, even if they haven't always been on the exact same side.  Should they decide to unite the North and the East (through Harry and Sansa), obviously that means Sansa couldn't marry Aegon.  But Varys may well see an opportunity there to rally the North to Aegon's cause, despite the whole Stark/Targaryen history.  The truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna would be a nice way of helping that too.

I don't even know the point I'm trying to make here, except that I think the relationship between Varys and Littlefinger may well be the most important factor in the Game of Thrones from here-in, mainly due to their influence over three major players in Westeros (the North, the East and Aegon(/eventually the South).

[VarysTheSpider]

Calesta, on 20 July 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

I'm  wondering if Daenerys and her brother were even part of the original  plan? Dany did talk about when the knight takeing care of them died they  spent a lot of time running, hungry, no place to stay till Illyrio took  them in. Didn't seem planed but more of an afterthought.

aegon the unworthy, on 25 July 2011 - 02:35 AM, said:

Yep, me too.
If the whole Aegon shebang is true.
In that case Varys , as an arguable Targ loyalist (or a moral man interested in the benefit of the people yeah right), planned to hide baby Aegon and produce him later as heir to the throne, but then fate intervened and Dany and Viserys also got away.
So, for whom Varys  really intended to sit the Iron throne, and who is purely a feint?

Although normally I would take everything Varys says with a pinch of salt, I think it's safe to assume that everything he told Kevan in the epilogue regarding what he intends to happen and his own motivation for doing so is true. This seems a pretty safe assumption to me, because clearly Varys was not intending to manipulate Kevan in any way, therefore had no reason to give him false information (and of course, there's much of what he says that we know is true). So yes, basically a "moral" person, or whatever passes for one in Westeros. And I loved to hear it, because what he said about a good king putting his people before everything else is exactly what Dany wants too, and I think she's being treated rather harshly in this book.

I don't think either were feints. What makes Varys such a good player and one of my favourite characters is that he doesn't map out everything from start to finish and have everything go like clockwork. He hedges, and when things turn out differently because of things he can't control, he adapts. Dany and Viserys had to look as though they were beggars going from city to city with no help, or Robert would have tried to take them down ages ago. Why have a secret pact between Viserys and Oberyn's daughter if they were just afterthoughts. It was just hedging: Varys knew he couldn't account for every eventuality.

Edit - to be clearer, I don't think he ever *intended* just one thing all the way through. His choice is now obviously Aegon, but it could just as easily have been Dany, or Viserys, depending on how things played out.

Edited by VarysTheSpider, 26 July 2011 - 01:06 PM.

[Kluane]

When I read all the boys and girls with in their hands a dagger ready to finish Kavan, I thought “what a perfect company for Arya when she’ll be back in Westeros.”

[ZombieWife]

Kluane, on 26 July 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

When I read all the boys and girls with in their hands a dagger ready to finish Kavan, I thought “what a perfect company for Arya when she’ll be back in Westeros.”

winning

(in a creepy way)

[indiesque]

Since some people seem to think Arya might be in King's Landing, and some seem to think Varys could be a Faceless Man... maybe Varys is Izembaro?

[Lawrence Lawson]

Jon Snow is the true Aegon--Ned Stark having stolen him away, counter to his actions in helping Robert win the throne. This Young Griff is an impostor.

You read it here first.  

[Lawrence Lawson]

Kluane, on 26 July 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

When I read all the boys and girls with in their hands a dagger ready to finish Kavan, I thought “what a perfect company for Arya when she’ll be back in Westeros.”

Never thought of that, but I bet you're 100% correct. One of the children was Arya. ['Cept she would have cause to hate a Lannister.]

[Kluane]

Lawrence Lawson, on 28 July 2011 - 10:27 AM, said:

Never thought of that, but I bet you're 100% correct. One of the children was Arya. ['Cept she would have cause to hate a Lannister.]

I'm not sure she's already in King's Landing, but in a near future, Arya can be with Varys little birds, it's the perfect place to be an assassin.

[Nichole Wiegand]

Aegon is probably the next heir.

Reading through there are many places that the Freys discuss lineage, I don't have the exact pages or quotes for this; however, in the list of houses at the back of the books, Walder Frey's oldest son Stevron is listed as the heir to the Crossing. Stevron is killed in battle and the next in line is said to be Ryman, Stevron's eldest son, rather than Emmon Frey (Genna Lannister's husband and Walder's second eldest son). As further proof, when Ryman dies the line is passed to Ryman's eldest Edwyn (Walder's gr grandson) rather than a son or grandson of Walder.

If the Targs go by the same inheritance, than Aegon is the rightful heir in the Targ line as the eldest son of the eldest son. However, Targs have been known to not follow all the customs of Westeros....

[All-for-Joffrey]

Drogon, on 25 July 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

I think varys is one of the faceless men, that's why he can change his looks and his voice, but I could be mistaken.

Interesting theory, I never thought of that.

However, personally I've always speculated that Varys wants the Targs back not because he's a loyalist but because he knows about the prince that was promised and all those other prophecies, the Others' invasion, etc., so he wanted to bring dragons back to Westeros to deal with it (bring the Targs back, bring the dragons back). The faceless men seem like they'd be more sympathetic to the aims of the Others' (death, the many faced god, etc). Sometimes a spade is just a spade and Varys' background as a mummer is more than sufficient explanation for his disguises.

[freakinmayhew]

I'd like to read a standalone story about Ser Pounce and his feline compatriots valiantly defending King Tommen's dinner from the hungry Old Tom.

[NW Deserter]

Drogon, on 25 July 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

I think varys is one of the faceless men, that's why he can change his looks and his voice, but I could be mistaken.

I've considered this too but I really doubt it. The Facless Men as an organization began as slaves to Old Valyria and gave their first gifts to those oppressed by Targaryen kinsmen.

I guess it's not so ridiculous to theorize that he might've learned their craft and is now a rogue FM...I could see Arya having to kill him at some point.

As far as the chapter itself, it's cool to finally get in Kevan's head a little bit. He's obviously much more capable than Cersei is...and speaking of Cersei, man, she is really a shell of what she was. Kinda happy to see that, but I also feel a little bad for her.

And I had really thought Varys would turn up in Essos somewhere, but it was cool nonetheless to see him come back. I'm still not sure what to think of him. It's obvious he wants a Targ on the throne, but I can't decide which one he prefers. What I'd like to see happen is for him to fully support Aegon and it be revealed that Dany/Viserys was just a distraction, but she comes in anyways and fucks shit up.

This chapter also reminded me of another character that we haven't seen at all in this book - Littlefinger. I have to wonder what he's been up to, and how much he and Varys are in league with each other...I don't think LF supports the Targs, but I could see him supporting Sansa. That would be interesting, to have Varys and LF, the two ultimate puppet masters, going at it with Sansa and Aegon as their tools. Then Dany finally gets her shit together and knocks out both of them.  

[brandon blackfyre]

Whoops wrong thread.

Edited by brandon blackfyre, 01 August 2011 - 10:26 PM.

[Restless]

Is there any way to prove Aegon is or is not a true Rhaegar's son or impostor?

Maybe only via magic/dragons?

[Windchaser]

I wonder if Cersei is as empty and docile as she appears to be. There is that line about a woman knowing her place that Kevan reacts to.
Could Cersei be playing the part of a humbled woman until Ser Robert proves her innocence in battle?
(The scrubbing is probably not faked behavior though.)

Poor Kevan, as Lannisters go, he was one of the nicer ones. Though I suppose I should have seen it coming in some fashion.
Varys taking this hands on approach to getting rid of an obstacle to his plans...And then revealing his little birds...
I feel like rereading the entire series and really analyzing all the Varys scenes carefully, he is winning at the mad plotting (him and Littlefinger as has been pointed out).