[ADWD Spoilers] Jon Snow (cont'd)

[Yeade]

Clearly, I dallied too long in replying to the previous thread. Here's a new one! ^_^

As I recall, the French the Brits rescued from Dunkirk were known allies, and not recent enemies who were fresh off a siege of London. ;) And the wildlings' sense of honor doesn't mean they'll integrate very well into the North, nor that northern lords will want them anywhere near settled lands.

True, the French and Belgian at Dunkirk had been allies of the British longer. Plus, I believe there were British troops stranded as well. Though I'm not sure what happens to Cotter Pyke and his ships, so there's at least a chance Jon's dilemma is the same in this respect. What's more, the wildlings at Hardhome are not fighting Germans or even men, and the Others don't take prisoners.

I guess I simply feel you underestimate the cachet Jon gains in the wildlings' eyes for sticking his neck out on their behalf when the NW resents them and fools like Selyse are loudly advocating that they be abandoned to the ice zombies. While I don't deny the North may be unwilling to accept the wildlings due to cultural differences and a long history of warfare, Jon needn't concern himself with this just yet. He only needs the wildlings to remain loyal to him in defense of the Wall, and I think his offer of alliance and understanding of the wildling worldview, coupled with a daring rescue mission or two, are more than enough to secure what he requires at the moment. Frankly, I believe even the Umbers might reconsider their grudge against the wildlings if the latter prove valiant in fighting for the North. Not to mention ADWD seems to give the northern lords a hard edge that's not much less wild than the wildlings, IMO. Seriously, Manderly, who's probably the Stark bannerman most influenced by southern customs, has no compunctions about baking and eating Frey pies. Let's not even bother listing the sadistic pleasures of the Boltons. And, again, ICE ZOMBIES.

Dunkirk was twenty miles from the English coast; Hardhome was hundreds of miles away, and besieged by undead. I doubt Jon would ever have arrived, much less brought back any wildlings or even his own men.

Does Jon intend to set off for Hardhome from Castle Black? I thought Hardhome is more accessible from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. To be honest, I have no memory whatsoever of how long Mormont's ranging to the Fist of the First Men takes, but I'd note that this is with a column of two hundred some men cutting straight through the Haunted Forest. Would it be possible to lead a group along the Wall, then the coastline of the Shivering Sea? Perhaps with naval reinforcements from Eastwatch? Speed's the key, I think. Here's where my ignorance of the details of ADWD prevents me from speculating any further. I don't know if Jon has any tactics in mind for this rescue effort or intends to work out a plan after he knows whether there'll be volunteers available.

One point I agree with you on is that Jon himself has no business leading what's potentially a suicide run. He must negotiate with the Hardhome wildlings in person, to be sure, but I figure that can be done if any survivors return to the Wall. Jon can make their passage to the south side of the Wall contingent on their good behavior and take hostages to ensure obedience then. Meanwhile, it seems everything at the Wall is liable to fall to pieces in Jon's absence. Like I mentioned before, Jon needs to learn that self-preservation is now among his duties to the NW and realm. I expect he won't find much joy in this.

I think [Marsh et al.] panicked after hearing Ramsay's letter and decided to take off Jon so that they can appease Ramsay Bolton.

Very good point about Marsh et al. acting before Jon allows the wildlings past the Wall if they are truly unable to accept the alliance. OTOH, if the attempted assassination's to curry favor with Bolton... Well, my opinion of Marsh and his co-conspirators' collective ability to see what's right in front of their noses dips alarmingly low, lol. Killing Jon not only instigates bloody conflict with the wildlings that may decimate the NW but won't solve the issue of Stannis's remaining forces on the Wall. Unless Marsh hopes to beat them into surrendering to the Boltons, too. It's really hard for me to imagine what Marsh et al. intend to do after Jon's dead. Any ideas?

Regarding Ghost being sacrificed to heal or revive Jon, there's a silver lining in that Jon has the skinchanging talent to bond with other animals. Including, say, a dragon. B)

Though, recently, I've been in favor of Jon, supposing he turns out to be AAR, fulfilling the prophecy metaphorically through the Night's Watch, whose vows include "I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn..."

edit: BBCode formatting

[Buried Treasure]

First thread reached 20 pages so seems to have been locked.

The last thread ended on the ways that Jon can be resurrected and the possibility that Ghost might have the role of Nissa Nissa. I don't think Ghost will need to be killed for Jon's Resurrection - Thoros never needed a sacrifice, although if Jon is AA it could be possible later.

Personnally I kind of forgot about Beric and UnCat when I read this chapter. I was very upset as I thought Jon had a serious case of Plot Armour Failure and would pass into Ghost then whither away. I was relieved to come on the boards and see that most people are pretty certain he is gonna come through somehow.

I also wanted to discuess the Stewards' betrayal:

Regarding whether this was planned out before the night of Ramsey's letter: there definately seemed to be a faction forming between Marsh, Yarwick and Selyse. That is to say all those that opposed trusting the wildling and thought marching to rescue Pyke was folly. The queen's men definately were involved as it was Sir Patrek trying to get past Wun Weg.

I think there was a plot to prevent Jon marching to Hardholme, but it may have been to imprison him rather than assassinate, with the caveat if anything goes wrong we have to kill him. Then eveybody gets stirred over the letter, the plotters have to make their move. Suddenly there is a crazed giant in the yard, chaos everywhere, one man goes for his dagger...

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

As much as I think Jon was right in most of the decisions to incorporate the Wildings into the Wall's defense, I do think the march to Hardhome was a very bad idea. Hardhome is about 400 miles from Castle Black. Think about Stannis' march through the Wolfswood to Winterfell, and then think about a even longer journey, through the Haunted Forest which is colder an has tougher terrain, and then have to march back to the Wall...

I think Hardhome is pretty much a suicide mission and a very bad idea. I think boat was the only reasonable means of rescue.

[Vikingkingq]

Just realized something: if Melisandre revives Jon Snow the same way Thoros revived Beric, that means he might be able to set Longclaw/other swords on fire!

[jurble]

So, assuming Ghost dies when Jon is rezzed, along with the fact that a red priestess is doing the rezzing, what are the odds that Jon 2.0 will have red eyes?

[Wouter]

Trackerneill;

As I recall, the French the Brits rescued from Dunkirk were known allies, and not recent enemies who were fresh off a siege of London.

But it should be noted that only a couple or so months later, the British fleet was shooting up the French one at Mers-El-Kebir. Alliances can always shift; Stannis and Jon were right to go for the wildlings IMO, and with Mance and Tormund on board they could control them. Until they killed Jon, at least.

Yeade; interesting idea about the Starks communicating with each other this way. "the pack survives". I just hope Sansa would be able to join in the fun - through the weirwoods maybe.

In the closed thread, someone mentioned that Ghost could be the sacrifice to save Jon. While I would take the trade and I could see it happening, that would still be a cruel thing to write (but GRRM is capable of it). It's one of the reasons why I prefer Dany to be AA: she has already sacrificed Drogo and her unborn child, so I hope the dragons are (new) Lightbringer and Jon is another very important prophecied person. Maybe Longclaw actually is (old) Lightbringer of legend - or the sword on fire trick will be similar to what Dondarrion could do after getting resurrected (he set a blade on fire with his blood). Since Longclaw is Valyrian steel, it will be able to withstand the heat and the combo would be a fearsome weapon against wights and others alike. Thinking about it, I guess the chances of "kiss of fire" by Mel are high - it's what happened to Dondarrion, too.

Please don't kill Ghost, GRRM!

[Ygritte]

So, assuming Ghost dies when Jon is rezzed, along with the fact that a red priestess is doing the rezzing, what are the odds that Jon 2.0 will have red eyes?

Pretty good, I think.

[Wouter]

So, assuming Ghost dies when Jon is rezzed, along with the fact that a red priestess is doing the rezzing, what are the odds that Jon 2.0 will have red eyes?

Dondarrion doesn't have red eyes though (AFAIK), so it's not an automatic result of "kiss by fire"?

[jurble]

Dondarrion doesn't have red eyes though (AFAIK), so it's not an automatic result of "kiss by fire"?

Nah, but I'm assuming here that Ghost is going to have to be sacrificed for Jon's resurrection, so it's a reverse skingchanger's second life. Instead of the man living in the animal, Ghost will live within Jon Snow.

[Gytha Ogg]

I don't think Ghost will necessarily need to be killed for Jon's resurrection, but to parallel the original AA story he would need to do it to obtain Lightbringer.

[RedHairedWight]

So, assuming Ghost dies when Jon is rezzed, along with the fact that a red priestess is doing the rezzing, what are the odds that Jon 2.0 will have red eyes?

With a tendency to drool and eat his meat raw. But he'll be a bit quieter.

[Vikingkingq]

I don't think Ghost will necessarily need to be killed for Jon's resurrection, but to parallel the original AA story he would need to do it to obtain Lightbringer.

Unless we take it that it's the loss of the Watch, the one thing Snow cared most for, that does the trick.

[The Sunspear]

Personally, I think it would be hilarious if Jon just survives his wounds due to the cold of the snow staunching the bleeding and someone getting to him in time to treat the injuries. Then Melissandre can come running in a half-minute late and be utterly anticlimactic.

That would be truly troll-tacular.

[Wouter]

I don't think Ghost will necessarily need to be killed for Jon's resurrection, but to parallel the original AA story he would need to do it to obtain Lightbringer.

But didn't Dany parallel that already with sacrificing Drogo? Especially as, IIRC, AA is also explicitly mentioned to "wake dragons from stone" - which Dany has done. And I'm assuming it's unlikely Jon is going to give a repeat performance of that.

No, please have Jon as the prince that was promised, and Dany as AA (with the dragons made out of stone eggs). Jon can have a burning sword and Dany her dragons.

[IceSt0rm]

So, assuming Ghost dies when Jon is rezzed, along with the fact that a red priestess is doing the rezzing, what are the odds that Jon 2.0 will have red eyes?

Lol looks like someone here plays mmos

[jurble]

Personally, I think it would be hilarious if Jon just survives his wounds due to the cold of the snow staunching the bleeding and someone getting to him in time to treat the injuries. Then Melissandre can come running in a half-minute late and be utterly anticlimactic.

That would be truly troll-tacular.

Dunno, the true toll would be Jon being dead. Basically, the number of people that believe Jon is dead is like.. 0. GRRM set up red priest's ability to resurrect people with Thoros. In ADwD he reminds us by having Moqorro heal Victarion. Since ACoK he's set up that wargs live on in their animals, and then reminds us in the prologue. Everything he does is just to make Jon's resurrection believable. If he does all that set-up and leaves Jon dead, it would be hilarious.

Lol looks like someone here plays mmos

duh.

[tozka]

As much as I think Jon was right in most of the decisions to incorporate the Wildings into the Wall's defense, I do think the march to Hardhome was a very bad idea. Hardhome is about 400 miles from Castle Black. Think about Stannis' march through the Wolfswood to Winterfell, and then think about a even longer journey, through the Haunted Forest which is colder an has tougher terrain, and then have to march back to the Wall...

I think Hardhome is pretty much a suicide mission and a very bad idea. I think boat was the only reasonable means of rescue.

Boat or rather ships were impossible means of rescue since Jon had all of them sent and 5 of 11 ships were lost in the storm and Melisandre saw the other 6 would not survive though Jon did not trust Melisandre. Still if I was him I'd have done the same, I'd have taken small token of 100-200 seasoned men - mixed wildlings/Night Watch and ride to try rescue the thousands of men trapped Hardhome, and the survives from the ships Jon sent. He was thinking that he would start from Eastwatch, and wonders if he should take more people for most security or less for mobility. Also he is thinking he will need to bring food, which would slow them. He also considers enlisting the help of the giants.

My point is that the risk is worthy, lead 100 men to save thousands.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

You know what I just remembered, this passage from AGOT:

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his

bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard

as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

This would fit in with the Jon's body preserved in the ice cell theory. Man that GRRM sure planned things ahead of time didn't he?

[Zezibesh]

Well you gotta remember, most of the prophecies are from the first and second book after all.

[Yarl Snow]

You know what I just remembered, this passage from AGOT:

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his

bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard

as the memory of all warmth fled from him."

This would fit in with the Jon's body preserved in the ice cell theory. Man that GRRM sure planned things ahead of time didn't he?

I was thinking the same thing, with regard to the Undying prophecy. Something about a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice.

And also, from CSI: You're not dead until you're warm and dead. ;) Nah.