[ADWD SPOILERS] Hardhome

[Datepalm]

Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Six centuries had come and gone since that night, but Hardhome was still shunned. The wild had reclaimed the site, Jon had been told, but rangers claimed that the overgrown ruins were haunted by ghouls and demons and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood.

So, that sounds suspiciously like Valyria to me - destruction, vulcanism, an area still regarded as haunted and demon infested - I can't recall demons being mentioned anywhere in the series except in regard to Valyria.

Any thoughts? My one assumption is that this is therefore not a natural or accidental event (Valyria or Hardhome). Hardhome might have been the center for a certain type of magic - greensight, children of the forest, warging, while Valyria was the center of another - dragons and fire magic. For whatever reason, someone is working to wipe them both out, and with the same methods. And I wonder if the famous Shadow of Asshai isn't another, much older, post volcanic desolation filled with ghosts.

[Dolorous Red]

Sounds a bit like that meteor strike in Siberia in the early 20th century.

[Jon AS]

Any thoughts? My one assumption is that this is therefore not a natural or accidental event (Valyria or Hardhome). Hardhome might have been the center for a certain type of magic - greensight, children of the forest, warging, while Valyria was the center of another - dragons and fire magic. For whatever reason, someone is working to wipe them both out, and with the same methods. And I wonder if the famous Shadow of Asshai isn't another, much older, post volcanic desolation filled with ghosts.

Since dates are always vague, this could even have coincided with the Doom. The Targaryens spent about 200 years on Dragonstone after the destruction of Valyria before Aegon decided to invade Westeros, so there's only about 100 years between the two events.

[Werthead]

The Doom was 400 years ago, the destruction of Hardhome 600. The Targs were on Dragonstone 100 years before the Doom and 100 after.

I never got the idea it was a natural disaster. I thought slavers from the now-Free Cities, realising this was an isolated outpost outside the protection of any of the Seven Kingdoms, had simply attacked it, enslaved tons of people and then burned the town so thoroughly it could be seen for miles.

It being a natural disaster is interesting though. Could it be related to the reawakening of the Others (who clearly take their time doing things)?

[Datepalm]

I never got the idea it was a natural disaster. I thought slavers from the now-Free Cities, realising this was an isolated outpost outside the protection of any of the Seven Kingdoms, had simply attacked it, enslaved tons of people and then burned the town so thoroughly it could be seen for miles.

I think thats a stretch - the fire could supposedly be seen from the wall, hundreds of miles away, and 'ash fell from the skies' for weeks. The demons and so on make the parallels to Valyria pretty clear, IMO.

[Ran]

Hrm... Tunguska event -- a comet or meteor crashing down and going kablooey?

But the shrieks...

Could there be dragons in those caverns? Or ... firewyrms?

"Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men."

[Gaston de Foix]

Hrm... Tunguska event -- a comet or meteor crashing down and going kablooey?

But the shrieks...

Could there be dragons in those caverns? Or ... firewyrms?

what's not clear to me- are the caves below Hardhome the one's the children of the forest live in?

I had the same thought, that in some way it had an ending similar to the Doom of Valyria. Btw, in AFFC it was hinted that the Faceless Men caused the Doom of Valyria, but it's harder to imagine the faceless men of Braavos being able to do that in Westeros.

[Ran]

I was very briefly going to wonder if Hardhome was a dry run for the Faceless Men's plans for Valyria... but yeah, that seems hard to credit.

I'm kind of liking the idea of firewyrms for some reason...

Wait... waking dragons from stone? Waking sleeping giants from the earth? And the whole thing about horns. Are they linked? Are firewyrms going to be crawling out of those stone caverns, perhaps at someone's beck and call? Are they going to destroy a part of the Wall?

Gah. Too. Many. Looney. Ideas.

[Datepalm]

I was very briefly going to wonder if Hardhome was a dry run for the Faceless Men's plans for Valyria... but yeah, that seems hard to credit.

That was exactly my initial thought as well, but it is a stretch, if only because 200 years is a rather long time. Do we even know for certain the FM caused the Doom? They were around through it, but causing it?

Hm, firewyrms...

[Talleyrand]

It being a natural disaster is interesting though. Could it be related to the reawakening of the Others (who clearly take their time doing things)?

Well when you're made of ice you can't move too fast or else you start to melt.

And Ran, stop putting awesome ideas into peoples heads!

[Jon AS]

The Doom was 400 years ago, the destruction of Hardhome 600. The Targs were on Dragonstone 100 years before the Doom and 100 after.

Right, the Targaryens were on Dragonstone before the Doom. Still, what's a couple of centuries in a timeline that might be off by several millennia.:P

[Gaston de Foix]

I was very briefly going to wonder if Hardhome was a dry run for the Faceless Men's plans for Valyria... but yeah, that seems hard to credit.

I'm kind of liking the idea of firewyrms for some reason...

Wait... waking dragons from stone? Waking sleeping giants from the earth? And the whole thing about horns. Are they linked? Are firewyrms going to be crawling out of those stone caverns, perhaps at someone's beck and call? Are they going to destroy a part of the Wall?

Gah. Too. Many. Looney. Ideas.

don't we know for certain that those are the caves the children of the forest live in?

Their magic in many ways seems just as potent. The Hammer of the Waters, breaking Westeros into half. The magic of Storm's End and the Wall also seems linked to them somehow. So if I had to conjecture the reason for an end to Hardhome, it could be because the wildlings angered the children somehow?

[MinDonner]

Speaking of Hardhome... is anyone else hoping that these "dead things in the water" are more along the lines of zombie squid, than just swimming wights?

[Talleyrand]

Speaking of Hardhome... is anyone else hoping that these "dead things in the water" are more along the lines of zombie squid, than just swimming wights?

No, that shit would be too scary.

[Ran]

No, that shit would be too scary.

Cthulhu saves! ... (in case he gets hungry later)

[Datepalm]

The giant Kraken must be hiding someplace.

[Talleyrand]

The giant Kraken must be hiding someplace.

Nah, it exploded. It's a well known fact that Krackens are allergic to water, it's their fatal flaw

[tze]

So many factors seem to come together, if you think about the implications of Hardhome. The Faceless Men and the Doom. Skinchangers and dragonriders. Slavery. Aegon the Conqueror and Torrhen Stark. The Valyrian Empire and Westeros. A picture begins to emerge.

1) The Valyrian Empire DID try to conquer Westeros before Aegon the Conqueror came. Six hundred years ago, in fact. They landed forces north of the Wall, thinking that this would be the perfect way to begin an assault: the wildlings are spread out and disorganized, they have no proper towns, and the kingdoms below the Wall don't really have information about what goes on north of the Wall, relying on the (even-then) undermanned Watch. The plan was to land at Hardhome, the only proper town (thus, the only possible threat), overwhelm it, and use it as a base of operations for the landing of more forces. When everything was in order, dragons would destroy the Watch, dragonriders would open the gates, and an army would pour south of the Wall, seemingly from nowhere, surprising and overwhelming the Stark's kingdom. The Valyrian dragonriders would consolidate their forces, land more at White Harbor and along the coast, and then pour south into the Riverlands and beyond (again, using the North's natural landmarks--Moat Cailin and the Neck--to shield themselves from detection from the southern kings, until it was too late).

2) The lands beyond the Wall, however, have something Valyrians had never encountered before: skinchangers. Think about it: in all of various characters' travels through Essos, has anyone encountered any group that bear a resemblance to skinchangers? I can't think of any; no legends, no stories, nothing.

3) An exploratory force lands at Hardhome. Skinchanger meets dragonrider, and the struggle for control of the dragons---a struggle the Valyrians were completely unprepared for---leads to the mini-Doom, the destruction of Hardhome. The surviving dragons end up in caves, and die quickly in the snow--not many were brought for the first assault, in any case, and since not all skinchangers have Bran-level skill, maybe they were unable to fully warg the dragons, lost control for some reason, or there were fewer skinchangers than dragons (since skinchanging is not a common skill). In any case, Valyria abandons its plans to take Westeros, since the idea of sorcerers who can steal their dragons terrifies them.

4) The Faceless Men hear hints of this. They investigate, head to Westeros and meet some skinchangers, and adapt their magic accordingly (they can't really skinchange like a Stark, but they can push their magic in that direction). We know the Faceless Men allegedly had something to do with the Doom. We know they were slaves in Valyria, and the old gods of the North abhor slavery. When Arya puts on a new face, she can feel the personality/experiences (briefly) of the original owner; that sounds an awful lot like an approximation of warging. The House of Black and White has a weirwood door; chairs are made of weirwood with ebony faces. This can't be a coincidence---do weirwoods even grow in Essos? Not to mention that Arya hears people in Braavos talking about Jon (they call him the Black Bastard of the Wall). Why on earth do the Braavosi care about the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Yes, the Iron Bank wants a word with Stannis, but Arya hears about Jon, not Stannis. Braavos was founded by Valyrian slaves, and it makes sense that people in power in Braavos would be accustomed to keeping tabs on the North of Westeros, having heard rumors of a connection to the Doom.

5) There is no indication that Aegon the Conqueror ever set foot in the North---the Inn of the Kneeling Man, where Torrhen Stark surrendered, is located in the Riverlands. Which is odd, since you'd think Aegon would want to have Stark surrender in Winterfell, seat of power of the oldest ruling family in Westeros, before all of the lords of the North. No battles were fought in the North or against Northerners. Aegon the Conqueror never even tried to take the lands north of the Wall. And Aegon was willing to leave off conquering Dorne---essentially leaving an undefeated foe at his back---to accomplish the rest of his conquest. Why?

6) I think Torrhen Stark was no skinchanger, but many of his ancestors were. I mean, look at the current generation: half a dozen wargs, at least one of whom is a greenseer. Brandon and Lyanna were said to both be "part horse", and the "wolf blood" could very well be a euphemism for warging aptitude. If Benjen is Coldhands (and Coldhands and Bloodraven seem to be two separate entities), he possibly has skinchanging abilities; look at how he's able to use ravens for scouts. Aegon the Conqueror attacked when he did because he was on a timetable---he knew he had to get the North to submit before the Starks produced a skinchanger, since otherwise, his great weapon--dragons--would be useless. And look at how the Targaryens treated the Starks after the conquest: they left them the hell alone. Queen Alysanne and her husband (whose name escapes me) took their dragons on a trip North once, but it sounds like that was a really unique event. No Targaryen ever married a Stark, as far as I can tell, and that is really strange when you look at the Starks' long bloodline and enormous prestige.

7) The implications for a new Targaryen conquest are huge. It's not like Aegon can invade the North without dragons--it's winter, and because of the long isolation of the North, he can't find any Targaryen loyalists. The wildlings would laugh at him, the Northern lords are probably still pissed about Rickard/Brandon/Lyanna, and there's no indication that Aegon knows anything at all about Northern culture---the major reason Robb was declared King in the North was because the northerners were sick of being ruled from the south. So Dany brings her dragons, but they aren't the unstoppable weapon in the North that they would have been in the past; between constant snow (snow doesn't burn!) and the fact that the current crop of Starks are all wargs . . . Aegon and Dany will have to content themselves with six kingdoms, at most.

[Datepalm]

Bravo. Best post ADWD crackpot conspiracy theory yet.

Not sure about the Valyrians as occupiers though - I was thinking whatever was going on up there was an early herald of the return of the Others, and the Valyrians/Dragonriders got involved to fight them, only to be defeated, and the later destruction of Valyria part of that as well. Certainly, the impression is that if Valyria was still about, they would have a lot more tools at hand against the Others.

[Marsala]

I just thought that it was a particularly savage raid of those cannibals from Skagos.