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The Wedding At The Twins


Lucreel

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Spoiler warning: thread deals with content from the chapter where there is a wedding at The Twins.

Damn, GRRM has some BRASS BALLS. He goes where few authors dare to tread. He is willing to kill off every major character, who would be 'protected' in the stories of 99%. He's essentially killed off the 'main characters' from the first three books (well, most of em).

I gotta say, during that whole chapter, I had a sense of dread. Actually, the sense of dread started when Robb Stark decided he could try to win back Walder Frey. Sometimes, you just gotta write off a loss. I just knew that it was bad, bad idea to ever go back to The Twins again. I knew Walder was going to betray him and attack him at the wedding. Just knew it was a trap.

*sigh*

Well, it makes for some damn fine, suspenseful reading, anyhow. I can't imagine what's next for Arya. I guess the only thing left for her now is to take up Jaqen's offer and become a faceless man. *grin* I'll tell you, even though I rather strongly suspected that there would be treachery at The Twins, I really never expected the author to go that far. It's heartbreaking, but it also takes some of the tired old formula out of fantasy literature - too much fantasy literature is far too predictable, because you *know* the protagonists are never in any real danger; GRRM just smashes those expectations on the floor, lol.

EDIT: Just an additional thought - I've started reading the next chapter, and it occurs to me that there's not a lot of people left for Sandor Clegane to ransom Arya to. I think the only people he could get any money out of now for Arya would be, potentially, the Starks' enemies, or *maybe* whatever loyal lords are left to the Starks (it's not clear if all the Umbers were killed or not - Smalljon probably has; thankfully some of Rob's lords aren't present at the wedding feast - the two he sent as Envoys to the Crannogmen (Lady Mormont and I forget the other). The Blackfish at Riverrun wouldn't recognize Arya, but perhaps some other lords might.

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:) Welcome to the cruelty of George R. R. Martin lol. I think chapter 52 is another one of those rights of passage like Ned's death in AGOT, but this one is probably more heartbreaking.

How do folks know chapter numbers? None of my chapters are numbered - I'm reading a recent paperback edition, and the chapters just have character names as titles, so you know what character's viewpoint you are seeing the world through. I suppose I could count the chapters but that seems tedious. Perhaps other editions have them numbered?

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As far as I know no edition has numbered chapters. Now, as to how anybody can know the exact chapter number, well, the sky is the limit when it comes to a fan's devotion. :laugh:

True, GRRM does not number his chapters--his own particular quirk, I guess. That's why you'll notice, once you finish all the books and join in the regular board threads, that chapters here on the board are always referred to as 'Tyrion 4' or 'Jon 3' or 'Ayra 2' or whatever. Its how we keep track of which chapter we're talking about. For myself, I have all my books marked with the Tyrion 4 or Jon 3 or whatever at the beginning of each of those chapters. Plus, at the back of the books, I have my own list of where those chapters occur. Like, Tyrion 4 - p. 273-296, like that. Makes life here on the board soooo much easier--otherwise, you get into ridiculous conversations like this:

Poster #1: I thought when Tyrion said that he was going to find out about XYZ, he was referring to what had just happened to him the night before?'

Poster #2: No, that's wrong! He mentioned finding out about XYZ before that thing that happened to him that night. Don't you remember--XYZ happened simultaneously with HIJKLMNOP, and that was after ABCD, but way before that thing that happened to him the night before QRST.'

Mod: *steps in with great, but weary, patience to sort things out*

So, much easier right up front for new readers to develop their own lists of Tyrion 2, page x to x---Jon 5, page x to x, that sort of thing. Then, you can pop into any thread like an old-time expert and say, like this...'I've always wondered why, in SoS (or Clash or Feast or GoT or DwD) in Catelyn 4, she says 'blah, blah, blah...'

Welcome to all. Everyone's looking forward to lots of new insight from y'all !!

:cheers:

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How do folks know chapter numbers? None of my chapters are numbered - I'm reading a recent paperback edition, and the chapters just have character names as titles, so you know what character's viewpoint you are seeing the world through. I suppose I could count the chapters but that seems tedious. Perhaps other editions have them numbered?

I use the chapter numbers from www.towerofthehand.com. I also don't read the actual physical books, even though I have hardcover A Dance with Dragons. I listen to audiobooks, so no wonder I didn't realize the chapters weren't numbered, I apologize for the confusion.

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True, GRRM does not number his chapters--his own particular quirk, I guess.

My theory is he didn't want to scare readers. . .*checks ToC. . .*OMG There's 114 Chapters!!!

Although, if someone is scared of a long book, I guess the sheer volume of the volume would be sufficient to ward them off.

;-p

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I had been storming through this book and then got to that chapter. Then I immediately read the Arya chapter that follows in the hopes that the Hound would do something. I had to put the book down for an hour after that.

The fact that Martin gets the reader to sympathize not only with the POV characters, but also with Robb just shows his abilities as a writer.

and nothing in a book made me as horrified/angry/vengeful as reading what they did with Grey Wind and Robb

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I had been storming through this book and then got to that chapter. Then I immediately read the Arya chapter that follows in the hopes that the Hound would do something. I had to put the book down for an hour after that.

The fact that Martin gets the reader to sympathize not only with the POV characters, but also with Robb just shows his abilities as a writer.

and nothing in a book made me as horrified/angry/vengeful as reading what they did with Grey Wind and Robb

I guess this is just me, but personally, dead is dead. What you do to my remains is of little consequence to me. I cannot feel it, and probably don't see it or know about it. However, it might have an affect on those left behind, and I feel badly for them - although, I don't think Arya, Rickon, Brandon or Jon Snow know about it. . . some news does make it to The Wall (I can't remember if Jon learned about it or not) - but, hearing about it's not so bad as seeing it firsthand - thought it would no doubt still be very hurtful.

Still, the main crime is the murder, not the mocking desecration.

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(I think I can eschew spoiler tags at this point - this post is so far down the page that if someone gets here, they must have been reading the thread).

I got to thinking about this - by doing what they've done, who is going to want to marry a Frey for the next 50 years? Everyone will worry they'll be slaughtered at the banquet. . .

Methinks Walder will have a very hard time marrying off his many sons, daughters, grandsons, and granddaughters now.

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(I think I can eschew spoiler tags at this point - this post is so far down the page that if someone gets here, they must have been reading the thread).

I got to thinking about this - by doing what they've done, who is going to want to marry a Frey for the next 50 years? Everyone will worry they'll be slaughtered at the banquet. . .

Methinks Walder will have a very hard time marrying off his many sons, daughters, grandsons, and granddaughters now.

This is good logic lol. If we only knew why none wanted to wed them before, but I think it is obvious. Perhaps once it is all said and done, there will be no Frey's to wed. One can always hope :).

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I guess this is just me, but personally, dead is dead. What you do to my remains is of little consequence to me. I cannot feel it, and probably don't see it or know about it. However, it might have an affect on those left behind, and I feel badly for them - although, I don't think Arya, Rickon, Brandon or Jon Snow know about it. . . some news does make it to The Wall (I can't remember if Jon learned about it or not) - but, hearing about it's not so bad as seeing it firsthand - thought it would no doubt still be very hurtful.

Still, the main crime is the murder, not the mocking desecration.

Well, honor and code is a huge part of this world (just like Medieval times in our own world) so to them it is a huge deal.

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GRRM did a fantastic job of setting the scene for the Red Wedding. The horrible food, the bad booze, the atmosphere, the off-beat music with the pounding drums, Catelyn's nauseousness...it set the scene incredibly to the point that when it happened, I felt like I was going to puke myself. And yes, I had the same "put the book down and go do something else" moment as when Ol' Ned lost his head.

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Everyone seems to merit this scene as an example of fantastic and risky writing. I feel exactly the opposite! It almost feels like GRRM is trying a bit too hard to combat readers 'expectations'. We get it GRRM the Stark's aren't going to win. First Ned, then Winterfell, then this Red Wedding! He is very willing to kill off who the reader may perceive as the 'good guys' yet he shows a huge reluctance to kill any of his 'antagonists'.

To be honest the whole 'naming Jon as heir to Winterfell' made Robb's death a bit obvious. I am also at the end of my tether with reading about Arya's journey's across the land. It has been for almost 2 whole (massive!) books that she has just been wandering about, doing sweet fuck all! Sure at first we got to see the whole 'pheasant' side of life, but surely in ASOS there is very little reasoning for her constant travelling being described. I half suspect GRRM killed off Robb just so he could draw her pointless walking about even further.

I am on a serious rage right now. I think I am just mourning the death of Robb currently and will soon start gushing yet again about how good the ASOIAF books are momentarily. But for now...nerd rage! :tantrum:

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Well I do agree that Arya's wandering does seem pointless but...

On the other hand, I think that GRRM specifically forces characters who are narrators to not be in close proximity to others, at least in terms of being able to specifically chronicle an event. I think that Arya suffers from this the most because she is a younger character and she wouldn't be able to think about things as deftly as the more mature players so her chapters at times seem to serve as fillers. Then again, I enjoy reading about her wanderings more than Sansa's stuff...

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Everyone seems to merit this scene as an example of fantastic and risky writing. I feel exactly the opposite! It almost feels like GRRM is trying a bit too hard to combat readers 'expectations'. We get it GRRM the Stark's aren't going to win. First Ned, then Winterfell, then this Red Wedding! He is very willing to kill off who the reader may perceive as the 'good guys' yet he shows a huge reluctance to kill any of his 'antagonists'.

To be honest the whole 'naming Jon as heir to Winterfell' made Robb's death a bit obvious. I am also at the end of my tether with reading about Arya's journey's across the land. It has been for almost 2 whole (massive!) books that she has just been wandering about, doing sweet fuck all! Sure at first we got to see the whole 'pheasant' side of life, but surely in ASOS there is very little reasoning for her constant travelling being described. I half suspect GRRM killed off Robb just so he could draw her pointless walking about even further.

I am on a serious rage right now. I think I am just mourning the death of Robb currently and will soon start gushing yet again about how good the ASOIAF books are momentarily. But for now...nerd rage! :tantrum:

I think the point of the "wandering" is actually a little bit deeper than you might realize. Don't get me wrong, I've shared your frustration as she wonders from place to place. . . except. . . everything that has happened seems perfectly logical. It doesn't feel forced to me. Robb was a weak King to begin with (not character-wise, but in terms of having a smaller 'army', and having allies who were not greatly afraid of him, who knew they could probably turn on him if it looked like the Lannisters were going to win, and who was in a position where his winning was never a very assured outcome - he was definitely the 'dark horse' of the various Kings, from the very beginning).

Now, you have Arya wondering the countryside an apparent smallfolk orphan. While she remained under the "protection" of that identity, nobody was going to send her off to Riverrun - what happened to her is about exactly what you'd expect to happen to her - conscripted by the Lannisters, and forced into service.

When Roose Bolton showed up, she had to make a decision. From the standpoint of GRRM, knowing he wanted Bolton to be a traitor and enemy to House Stark, it would not be plausible that if she turned herself over to him, something at least somewhat terrible wouldn't have happened to her (if you've reached the end of the book, you have a pretty good idea of what *would* have happened to her if she had revealed herself to Bolton).

If she made it to Riverrun, she probably would have been at the Red Wedding and died. GRRM, by having her not reach Riverrun in a timely fashion, and then reaching The Twins 'late', was using the happenstance of her long journey to keep her alive.

Basically, the long journey served to A) Introduce her to Jaqen, which will probably become an important part in her future character arc; B) Kept her 'out of the way' so that no large harm came to her, and she did not full under the long-term power of her House's enemies, as happened to Sansa, C) allowed the author to have the story take a somewhat surprising turn (e.g. she never made it back to her family - reading along from when she left Red Keep, the reader would *expect* she'd eventually make it back to her mother and brother. If the author chose to do that, the book would just be giving us the most obvious, least interesting outcome.

As for killing off all the protagonists, he's killed off the parents, true, and the eldest brother, but all the other children are alive. I think that GRRM had a much broader, "epic" if you'll forgive the use of that term, story arc in mind - the fall of one generation of the House, their complete loss of power, but then the comeback of the children as they grow into adults (at least, we can hope :dunno: ).

As for reluctance to kill off antagonists, I think we're going to start to see that in the coming books. In most story arcs of the, err, shall we say "adventure" genre, the middle of the story arc is usually when the very worst stuff happens, and the antagonists seem to be unstoppable and ascendent. ASoS is book 3 in a 7 book series. Things may actually even get a little worse in the next book or two (haven't read them yet), but I suspect you'll start to see more "good news" going forward.

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I suppose in the grand scheme of things Arya's 'wandering' is what has kept her alive for so long. But maybe if the Hound got there quicker he could have filled all the Frey's? :laugh: I am desperate to find out where her storyline goes from now on though. I hate how all the Stark's are scattered currently, it keeps the reader really on edge. Especially with what has just happened to Robb.

When I got to Stannis's chapter where he is told that Robb's had was removed and Grey Wind's was put on it in place my heart skipped a beat! What a truly grisly end, and I am filled with nothing but contempt for everyone at The Twins now! I really hope Jon manages to find Ghost soon! Same with Arya and Nymeria. Hopefully the Lannister's will get what's coming to them. Poor Robb, he was only a boy!

Maybe Jon will befriend the white walkers and destroy them all? :rolleyes:

I suppose you're right in that the story still has a long way to go, the Stark children characters still have time to really mature and age, maybe Rickon will save the day?

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I started out planning to read just AGoT to see how well the series has been adapted, and had sworn to stop at AGoT and wait till Season-2 of the series. But the books are so gripping that I am at ASoS right now, and just finished reading the Red Wedding chapter.

At this point, although I would continue to read on, I am really pissed off at GRRM. I could understand Ned's killing, in fact, I liked that GRRM did that because that, and Robert's death, is what essentially set up the entire conflict. But reading ASos and reading about how close Bran and Jon Snow came to meet, and how Robb and Catelyn were killed, an Arya's pointless wanderings, it seems to me that GRRM is exhibiting the best of his anti-social sentiments. He seems hell bent on proving that the good guys are fools who deserve to die and that the bad, cunning, heartless, shrewd people are the ones who really deserve to rule. Those with principles and honor and nobility die a horrible death, and those without a conscience or a soul are victorious. Those who really want to survive need to peel of their honor and nobility and be shrewd and ambitious to a fault.

Nothing exhibits this tendency more than Danny's story arc. She is 'sold' off to Khal Drogo by her own brother, betrayed by Maz Durr for saving her life and trusting her, left by Drogo's men along with the weak and the dying, and deceived by Pyat Pree. All of this happened to her until she visited Astapor and was repulsed by how the Unsullied were trained. She has a talk with Jorah about her brother Rhaegar's honorable and noble ways, and to this Jorah replies, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." It is only after this that we see how she comes into her own as a Queen when she betrays the slave traders and claims the unsullied for herself. And later, at Yukon(sic?), we see how she deceives and manipulates and wins the battle. She does not taste success until she puts aside all that the Starks could not.

Don't get me wrong though, the books are gripping and I shall read on, but at this point, unlike some who think the good guys will come out of this victorious, I think the bad guys will persist and that the final showdown might as well be between the bad and the worse. We will find out eventually, I suppose!

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<snip>

At this point, although I would continue to read on, I am really pissed off at GRRM. I could understand Ned's killing, in fact, I liked that GRRM did that because that, and Robert's death, is what essentially set up the entire conflict. But reading ASos and reading about how close Bran and Jon Snow came to meet, and how Robb and Catelyn were killed, an Arya's pointless wanderings, it seems to me that GRRM is exhibiting the best of his anti-social sentiments. He seems hell bent on proving that the good guys are fools who deserve to die and that the bad, cunning, heartless, shrewd people are the ones who really deserve to rule. Those with principles and honor and nobility die a horrible death, and those without a conscience or a soul are victorious. Those who really want to survive need to peel of their honor and nobility and be shrewd and ambitious to a fault.

The series of books has actually received some pretty heavy criticism from what I can tell about GRRM going a bit overboard with his 'bleakness' in the novels. I haven't actually read 'A feast for crows' yet, but all you need to do is look at the reviews of it on Amazon to see that the book is not widely loved and it appears a lot of readers started to get a bit frustrated. Not sure about 'Dance' yet, only time will tell!

I agree that the death of Ned was endearing for the novels, and excited me more than angered. But with the 'Red Wedding' I was left feeling a little bit cheated, and with a very bitter taste in my mouth.

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