246 replies to this topic

[Claire Williams]

Did a rundown of the visions Bran sees through the Winterfell heart tree and what I think they might mean.


Ok, gonna write in the scenes as they go back in time and we can maybe do some serious speculation on some of them, who they are:

--Young Eddard, talking about Jon and Robb.  This would have been right after the end of Robert's uprising. (283 AL, 17 years ago)

5-6 YEAR GAP

--Older girl looks like Arya, younger boy with longish hair, fighting at sticks.  These two must be Lyanna and Benjen. (If he thought it was Arya, Lyanna was probably around 10-11 in this vision, putting us at 277 AL, 23 years ago)

16-34 YEAR GAP

--Woman heavy with child, kneels before tree and asks the old gods for a son who would avenge her.  (Some suggest mother of Ramsay Bolton, but that cannot be right if we're going back in time to before Lyanna and Benjen as children.  Ramsay Snow is in his 20's.)    

My best guess is this is the unknown mother of Eddard, Brandon, Benjen and Lyanna, OR the unknown mother of Rickard Stark, who is thought to be an only child.  If it is Rickard's wife, this would be around 261 AL, 39 years ago.  If it is Rickard's mom, this is probably around  243 AL, 57 years ago.

28-46 YEAR GAP

--Slender brown haired girl kisses a young knight as tall as Hodor.  

The tall knight could probably be Duncan, and as the next novella is set at Winterfell, that seems a good guess. The Rebellion at Whitewalls happened in 212 AL, and so if the next novella is a year or two after that (following the pattern so far), this probably happens in 214 or 215 AL, 85 years ago.   The girl he kisses might be Edwyle Stark's sister, who went on to marry a Royce.

25 YEAR GAP

--Pale and fierce dark-eyed youth slices 3 branches off the weirwood and makes them into arrows.

Think this has to be a young Bloodraven. He killed Daemon Blackfyre at the battle of Redgrass field with arrows and bow made from Weirwood.  He's also an albino, which would definitely fit the pale and dark-eyed.  He was born 175 AL, so being a "youth" would probably put him around 16-18 years old.  Call it 16 years old, or 191 AL, which would make this scene around 109 years ago.

--Visions start to come faster, skip more time, maybe.  Bran is seeing Lords that are tall and hard stern men in mail and fur.  (They are probably Torrhen Stark and ancestors?)

--Last and probably earliest vision, the sacrifice before the heart tree.  During the time of the First Men, maybe (see bronze weapon instead of steel).  Maybe this is how the First Men worshipped the Old Gods before the Andals came.  And maybe the blood is what woke the weirwoods.

[DonalNoye]

Two things.

One - I agree that the girl playing at swords was definitely Lyanna, but I thought the boy was a young Ned. Doesn't Bran think something along the lines of, "He was done looking at his father and the next vision..." or something like that?

And two - Why would a young Bloodraven be in Winterfell? I think Bran would definitely recognize him, or at least make note of the big pink birthmark that is awfully similar to that of the Three-Eyed Crow.

Agree with the rest of it. I got all giddy, catching a glimpse of Dunk. And could Bran's line comparing him to Hodor be a possible reference to ancestry? Maybe Dunk's gonna get himself a woman after all. And wouldn't it be great if that woman grew up (for a long time) to be Old Nan?

[Eaglewood]

I'm VERY curious about the implications of the blood sacrifice. I have a feeling it's a very important part of the puzzle we cannot fully see yet.

[tozka]

DonalNoye, on 15 July 2011 - 01:03 AM, said:

Two things.

One - I agree that the girl playing at swords was definitely Lyanna, but I thought the boy was a young Ned. Doesn't Bran think something along the lines of, "He was done looking at his father and the next vision..." or something like that?

The boy is described as being younger than the girl. Ned is older than Lyanna, while Benjen is younger than her. It must be Lyanna and Benjen

Quote

And two - Why would a young Bloodraven be in Winterfell? I think Bran would definitely recognize him, or at least make note of the big pink birthmark that is awfully similar to that of the Three-Eyed Crow.

Why not ? (Why Egg and Dunk were/will be in Winterfell). He was young , that was during his father reign (Aegon IV).Let's say he likes to travel around. I don't see the need for a particular reason.

Edited by tozka, 15 July 2011 - 01:27 AM.

[DonalNoye]

Ah, didn't catch the part about the boy being younger. Thanks.

As for Bloodraven, I guess that makes sense. For some reason I never really pictured him going north before being sent to the Wall, but I guess I don't really have any basis for that. I still think that Bran would make note of the birthmark, however, rather than just his skin tone and eyes.

[Ser Pistus]

The "pale and fierce dark-eyed youth" cannot be Bloodraven. Bloodraven is an albino with only one eye, and that one is red.

He is just some ancient Stark.

[The Faceless She-Wolf]

Claire Williams, on 14 July 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

--Young Eddard, talking about Jon and Robb.  This would have been right after the end of Robert's uprising. (283 AL, 17 years ago)

Interestingly the exact words are: "let them grow up close as brothers"
"As", such a small word but doesn't it imply that they actually are not brothers?

[Marcus of the South]

Yes, by definition albinos don't have dark eyes (though he could've still had two. He lost his second during the Blackfyre Rebellion.)

[rashtrakut]

Ser Pistus, on 15 July 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

The "pale and fierce dark-eyed youth" cannot be Bloodraven. Bloodraven is an albino with only one eye, and that one is red.

He is just some ancient Stark.

Bloodraven had two eyes until Bittersteel yanked one out one of them during the Battle of Redgrass Field.  So a vision of him as a youth will show both eyes - though both will be red.  Since Bran appears to be seeing Starks (he sees faces that look familiar from the crypts), I would agree with you that it is likely a Stark.

[Claireducky]

rashtrakut, on 15 July 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Bloodraven had two eyes until Bittersteel yanked one out one of them during the Battle of Redgrass Field.  So a vision of him as a youth will show both eyes - though both will be red.  Since Bran appears to be seeing Starks (he sees faces that look familiar from the crypts), I would agree with you that it is likely a Stark.

Two things:

Red eyes can still be "dark".  Bran himself describes them as looking like "pools of blood" (which is a dark red).

Bran isn't *just* seeing Starks, he's seeing through the eyes of the Weirwood to those who stood before it.  They need not all have been Starks.

Ok, three things.

I think the giveaways for Bloodraven in this one (besides the pale and fierce) are the weirwood arrows.  It's likely not a northman, as what Stark would cut branches from a weirwood to make arrows?  A southron would have no regard for it being a weirwood (at least not until he became a greenseer!).  Bloodraven was famed for his Weirwood bow and arrows on the battlefield, which is how he killed Daemon Blackfyre who rose against Daeron.  He is the only character in which use of a weirwood bow and arrows has ever been mentioned before, and I think that is a big point in his favor.

[Brandon the Epithetless]

Claireducky, on 15 July 2011 - 05:24 AM, said:

A southron would have no regard for it being a weirwood (at least not until he became a greenseer!).  Bloodraven was famed for his Weirwood bow and arrows on the battlefield, which is how he killed Daemon Blackfyre who rose against Daeron.  He is the only character in which use of a weirwood bow and arrows has ever been mentioned before, and I think that is a big point in his favor.

He is a southron but also a Blackwood through his mother, Blackwoods has stubbornly resisted Andal culture, and one of the few Southron houses south of the Neck who still retain First Men ideals and religion. We do not know if he worshiped the seven or the old gods, but I'll bet on the old gods as he and Bittersteel retained their mothers' houses' animosity which could mean they were raised in their maternal grandpa's castles. If he was raised in Raventree Hall he is most likely a follower of the old gods.

I know he used a weirwood bow but can't remember any mention of weirwood arrows.

Edited by Brandon the Epithetless, 15 July 2011 - 06:03 AM.

[palimpsest.]

Claire Williams, on 14 July 2011 - 10:48 PM, said:

--Slender brown haired girl kisses a young knight as tall as Hodor.  

The tall knight could probably be Duncan, and as the next novella is set at Winterfell, that seems a good guess. The Rebellion at Whitewalls happened in 212 AL, and so if the next novella is a year or two after that (following the pattern so far), this probably happens in 214 or 215 AL, 85 years ago.   The girl he kisses might be Edwyle Stark's sister, who went on to marry a Royce.

I think the girl he kisses is Old Nan.

Ser Pistus, on 15 July 2011 - 01:38 AM, said:

The "pale and fierce dark-eyed youth" cannot be Bloodraven. Bloodraven is an albino with only one eye, and that one is red.

He is just some ancient Stark.

I don't think there's something like 'just some Stark', at least not in this scene. What Bran sees is important somehow.
If this youth's eyes really were described as 'pools of blood', then he might as well be Bloodraven. If not, he's some other important person.

[Ran]

I'm sure the "dark-eyed youth" is Bloodraven. If the person he saw had red eyes, for sure Bran would note, "red eyes" rather than worrying about whether they were light or dark. He'd have noticed the birthmark, too, it's simply too noticeable.

Oh, I bet I know ... sort of. Three weirwood arrows, huh?

Is this a son (or grandson?) of Torrhen Stark who wants to make up for his father's shame as being the King Who Knelt, thinking weirwood arrows might be able to put an end to the three great dragons and going all, "Well, the legends say..."?

To his cost, no doubt.

[jack88]

I thought it might have been Bloodraven too.

But man, I just get the jollies thinking about all the shit Bran will be able to look back on and present in his chapters in WoW.  Like this is it.  Bran is going to be able to ANSWER SOME SHIT for us.  He was already moments away from nailing down the truth about Jon's birth when he saw Eddard in the godswood, and that is just ONE SINGLE MOMENT.  MMMMM. DELICIOUS

[Claireducky]

Brandon the Epithetless, on 15 July 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

He is a southron but also a Blackwood through his mother, Blackwoods has stubbornly resisted Andal culture, and one of the few Southron houses south of the Neck who still retain First Men ideals and religion. We do not know if he worshiped the seven or the old gods, but I'll bet on the old gods as he and Bittersteel retained their mothers' houses' animosity which could mean they were raised in their maternal grandpa's castles. If he was raised in Raventree Hall he is most likely a follower of the old gods.

I know he used a weirwood bow but can't remember any mention of weirwood arrows.

In The Sworn Sword, when the battle of Redgrass Field is being described, it says "white" arrows multiple times.  I think that not only did Bloodraven use them, but maybe his entire Raven's Teeth regiment.

Trin, on 15 July 2011 - 06:09 AM, said:

I think the girl he kisses is Old Nan.



I don't think there's something like 'just some Stark', at least not in this scene. What Bran sees is important somehow.
If this youth's eyes really were described as 'pools of blood', then he might as well be Bloodraven. If not, he's some other important person.

Could be, and I like the idea of Hodor being a distant descendent of Dunk, but I thought Nan was brought to Winterfell as a wetnurse?  Don't know if that jives with "slender girl".

Ran, on 15 July 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

I'm sure the "dark-eyed youth" is Bloodraven. If the person he saw had red eyes, for sure Bran would note, "red eyes" rather than worrying about whether they were light or dark. He'd have noticed the birthmark, too, it's simply too noticeable.

Oh, I bet I know ... sort of. Three weirwood arrows, huh?

Is this a son (or grandson?) of Torrhen Stark who wants to make up for his father's shame as being the King Who Knelt, thinking weirwood arrows might be able to put an end to the three great dragons and going all, "Well, the legends say..."?

To his cost, no doubt.

I am standing by thinking it is Bloodraven.  Sure, Bran could have come out and said red eyes and birthmark, but where would have been the mystery in that? You guys know GRRM better than that.  The other signs to me, point to Bloodraven, and the timing would be right for him to be a youth (approximately 20-30 years before the Dunk kissing scene).


Anybody have any thoughts on the pregnant woman asking for vengance?  We can date it as being someone alive in the last 90 years or so, as it was between Dunk kissing the girl and Lyanna and Benjen fighting.

[Jon AS]

Ran, on 15 July 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

I'm sure the "dark-eyed youth" is Bloodraven. If the person he saw had red eyes, for sure Bran would note, "red eyes" rather than worrying about whether they were light or dark. He'd have noticed the birthmark, too, it's simply too noticeable.

Oh, I bet I know ... sort of. Three weirwood arrows, huh?

Good point about the birthmark. On the other hand: three arrows? One for Daemon, one for Aegon and one for Aemon?

[tze]

Ran, on 15 July 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

Is this a son (or grandson?) of Torrhen Stark who wants to make up for his father's shame as being the King Who Knelt, thinking weirwood arrows might be able to put an end to the three great dragons and going all, "Well, the legends say..."?

Maybe this was Torrhen Stark himself? I can't remember if we were ever told if he was old or young when he bowed to Aegon the Conqueror.

[Gytha Ogg]

Quote

--Woman heavy with child, kneels before tree and asks the old gods for a son who would avenge her. (Some suggest mother of Ramsay Bolton, but that cannot be right if we're going back in time to before Lyanna and Benjen as children. Ramsay Snow is in his 20's.)

My best guess is this is the unknown mother of Eddard, Brandon, Benjen and Lyanna, OR the unknown mother of Rickard Stark, who is thought to be an only child. If it is Rickard's wife, this would be around 261 AL, 39 years ago. If it is Rickard's mom, this is probably around 243 AL, 57 years ago.

This one is interesting. I've always been intrigued as to who Ned, Brandon, Lyanna and Benjen's mother is and why we never hear of her.

Their grandmother was a Flint, I think? Don't know if it says on which side of the family though.

I also think the girl kissing Duncan is Old Nan.

Edited by Gytha Ogg, 15 July 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[Liliedhe]

I wonder if the pregnant woman is the girl who kisses Dunk, just later (and maybe expecting his child?) Or she might be another of the She-Wolves, since they'd have quite a lot of reason to want to be avenged.

[Claireducky]

Gytha Ogg, on 15 July 2011 - 01:04 PM, said:

This one is interesting. I've always been intrigued as to who Ned, Brandon, Lyanna and Benjen's mother is and why we never hear of her.

Their grandmother was a Flint, I think? Don't know if it says on which side of the family though.

I also think the girl kissing Duncan is Old Nan.

Eddard's mother's mother was a mountain clan Flint.  Who she married and who their daughter was (Ned's mom) is still unknown)

Liliedhe, on 15 July 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

I wonder if the pregnant woman is the girl who kisses Dunk, just later (and maybe expecting his child?) Or she might be another of the She-Wolves, since they'd have quite a lot of reason to want to be avenged.

She-wolves?  Please elaborate?