It is none Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think Tyrion would tell her not to trust him and would congratulate her on it. Tyrion has already betrayed her. He told Aegon to go West and start conquering to win her hand. If he has much success what is to keep him from marrying Arianne and try to claim the Iron Throne for himself.Nice point that Tyrion is the one who sent Aegon off to conquer Westeros. But Tyrion did not do this to betray Dany and shows surprise that Aegon actually took his advice. I'm pretty sure Martin WANTS Aegon to have Dorne behind him in a showdown with Dany. Quentin's death will be another black mark against Dany in Dorne= so the Dorne dynamic won't be all Tyrion's doing. I'm afraid there is another real intentional betrayal in store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagleheart Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I don't see why that would make a difference. Victarion clearly has no intention of bringing her back to Euron. He and Young Griff probably share more common motive than Young Griff shares with Quentyn. I can't imagine that Young Griff isn't the mummer's dragon, but I don't know why he isn't grouped with Connington and Tyrion.I think a better question is, why was she told to trust none of them? In regards to what? Quentyn was not especially untrustworthy, and Tyrion didn't appear to have ill-intentions, either. So why no trust?Quentyn tried to steal her dragons. That's a good reason to not trust him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Didn't the original version of this chapter (which George read at a con) have Quaithe saying "crow and kraken" rather than "kraken and dark flame"? I wonder who that was meant to reference... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedave Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Quentyn tried to steal her dragons. That's a good reason to not trust him.After she rejected him, and because he wanted to learn to ride one in hope of her marrying him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Pinko Grande Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Is there a reason to think the Dark Flame is anyone besides Moqorro? I can't think of anyone else who fits. And there's plenty of reason for Dany not to trust him, since he and the rest of the red priests seem to have an agenda entirely seperate from Dany's own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visenya Vhagar Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 After she rejected him, and because he wanted to learn to ride one in hope of her marrying him.Yes, this.Something else has occurred to me. It's unlikely, but isn't it possible that "mummer's dragon" could refer to a real dragon? Stannis keeps trying to wake up stone dragons. Couldn't that be the mummer's dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow's Eye Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Didn't the original version of this chapter (which George read at a con) have Quaithe saying "crow and kraken" rather than "kraken and dark flame"? I wonder who that was meant to reference...Yes! I was just thinking (and researching) this same thing. I didn't realize it was a con chapter, however. It's been so long that those con chapters have bled into canon for me... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzaku Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 RE: bewaring of Tyrion...Tyrion has repeatedly mentioned in his POVs throughout the series that he's all about House Lannister. Even though he wants to remove those particular members who wronged him, he still wants to protect his House. Which is why he tried to keep Tommen and Myrcella safe, and help secure King's Landing before Stannis' attack.If it comes down to choosing between the best interests of Dany and the best interests of House Lannister, Tyrion is going to side with his House every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Doe Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Nice point that Tyrion is the one who sent Aegon off to conquer Westeros. But Tyrion did not do this to betray Dany and shows surprise that Aegon actually took his advice. I'm pretty sure Martin WANTS Aegon to have Dorne behind him in a showdown with Dany. Quentin's death will be another black mark against Dany in Dorne= so the Dorne dynamic won't be all Tyrion's doing. I'm afraid there is another real intentional betrayal in store.I doubt if Doran is going rally behind Aegon. It would probably be a while before he got word of Quetyn's death. He's not going with Aegon while still having hope of Quetyn. Even with the Golden Company, I wonder if the strength of Dorne would be enough against Lannister and Highgarden. If not, he's not gonna move at all. Dorne does not love Quetyn that well. Arianne once commented that Quetyn took after his father.Is there a reason to think the Dark Flame is anyone besides Moqorro? I can't think of anyone else who fits. And there's plenty of reason for Dany not to trust him, since he and the rest of the red priests seem to have an agenda entirely seperate from Dany's own.The flame of dragon glass, in the Citadel. That could mean Marwyn, a maester set out to counsel Dany. RE: bewaring of Tyrion...Tyrion has repeatedly mentioned in his POVs throughout the series that he's all about House Lannister. Even though he wants to remove those particular members who wronged him, he still wants to protect his House. Which is why he tried to keep Tommen and Myrcella safe, and help secure King's Landing before Stannis' attack.If it comes down to choosing between the best interests of Dany and the best interests of House Lannister, Tyrion is going to side with his House every time.I agree. I doubt if Dany's not going to see this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeif Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Doesn't it bother anyone else that the prophecy says Tyrion should not be trusted? I LOVE Tyrion and can't see him trying to sabotage Dany> This is a plot twist I am NOT going to like.Honestly, I half expected Tyrion to meet Daenerys, then try to kill her as soon as they met. Don't ask me why, hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Didn't the original version of this chapter (which George read at a con) have Quaithe saying "crow and kraken" rather than "kraken and dark flame"? I wonder who that was meant to reference...A couple possibilities come to mind.1. Could still be Moqorro. He's dressed in black, so GRRM could have had the ironmen calling him crow since he looked like a black brother in earlier drafts, then later changed it to a different epithet.2. Euron Crow's Eye. Obvious reasons to pair him with the kraken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack-be-lucky Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 The very first thing someone will say when they want to use you for their own purposes would be "trust no one else, only me".Dany finally learned that about Mormont.We don't know who Quaithe is or what her game is, so her advice should be questioned from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Yeah, I've wondered why on earth Dany should believe Quaithe, much less take her word as such amazing gospel. Same for the visions in the House of the Undying. Why do these things influence her so? They end up making her chase shadows.And no, she should not trust Tyrion. No one should. Use him, embrace him, and definitely find a place for him - but don't actually trust him. He's a guy who killed his dad, would have happily killed his nephew and happily plotted against his own family - and is now seeking revenge against his sister. Why would you trust him? Use him when his goals and yours coincide. But other than that don't bother.And I love the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Lannister Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 The earlier comment about Quentyn being the mummers dragon raises an interesting point. I assumed he was the sun's son, just as I assumed Victarion was the kraken. But Victarion also has an arm of dark flame. Is it possible that the two terms are meant to go together? I don't know if Jon Connington has a little Lannister in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nategator Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Crazy theory: Mel's vision the girl in grey on the dying horse is the same as the "pale mare." Per the prophecy "And after her comes the Others."Prediction: Others' attack is imminent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Stranger Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I was really hoping that 'Dark Flame' would be the outgrowth of Aegon emerging at the head of the Golden Company, wielding one of the likely gifts in Illyrio's crates: Blackfyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaegarTargaryen Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't think 'mummer's dragon' means 'fake dragon'. I believe it means a dragon controlled by mummers (Varys and Illyrio.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swedish Chef Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The very first thing someone will say when they want to use you for their own purposes would be "trust no one else, only me".Dany finally learned that about Mormont.We don't know who Quaithe is or what her game is, so her advice should be questioned from the start.I tend to agree with you. Quaithe's advice isn't necessarily in Dany's best interest...she's just a powerful person that can come to Dany in visions...but I've seen no indication that she is actually good. What is interesting is that Quaithe's intentions seem to be to set Dany against just about everybody that could potentially be an ally. While I can believe that the Kraken may be an issue, I find it harder to believe that the Griffin would be (if he had actually showed up). The Mummer's Dragon implication I think implies that he is directly under the influence of Varys. It remains to be seen if this is a good or bad thing...however, I think it would be difficult to pit Aegon against Dany (at least while Tommen still sits the throne) as they are natural allies. Then again...we did see Stannis go after Renly first so its happened before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Númenórean Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I was really hoping that 'Dark Flame' would be the outgrowth of Aegon emerging at the head of the Golden Company, wielding one of the likely gifts in Illyrio's crates: Blackfyre.That's pretty much the exact thing I guessed. Dark flame = black fire = blackfyre. I just assumed it would come to Dany, not Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't think 'mummer's dragon' means 'fake dragon'. I believe it means a dragon controlled by mummers (Varys and Illyrio.)A mummer's dragon is a fake dragon. Mummers don't use actual dragons in their shows. The vision Dany saw in the House of the Undying was of a cloth dragon on poles. It was not a dragon that merely belonged to or was controlled by mummers. It was a fake dragon being controlled by mummers. I think that's a pretty strong indication that Aegon (if he is the mummer's dragon) is fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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