[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Claireducky]

Oh, and an added note for this theory-- Jon has this dream:

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

Lightbringer in Stannis' possession gives off a pretty light, but a cold one, it is obviously not the real sword.

[Claireducky]

Oh, and an added note for this theory-- Jon has this dream:

Lightbringer in Stannis' possession gives off a pretty light, but a cold one, it is obviously not the real sword.

Sorry to multi-post like this, but I also wanted to throw this out there: We don't know where Dark Sister is, nor Blackfyre. Blackfyre was supposedly taken by Bittersteel when he fled Westeros. Bloodraven was in possession of Dark Sister at one point, but it's unknown if he was able to take it to the Wall with him.

How awesome would it be if Dark Sister, one of the Ancient Swords of the Targs, is found at the Wall and becomes Lightbringer? And even more fangirlish of me-- but Dany somehow ends up with Blackfyre, just like Aegon and Visenya? I mean, Jon already has an awesome Valryian sword, so he probably doesn't need another one, but Dark Sister's whereabouts bother me.

[Reyne]

"Smoke" (really condensation in the air) from his wounds.

Salt from Bowen Marsh's tears.

"Under a bleeding star" - Ser Patrek's bloody dead body was being waved around in the air by the giant, and his heraldry is a star.

The last one is too much to be a coincidence, but it could also be GRRM poking fun at us, even if Jon ends up being another of the dragon's heads.

This is my only real objection with the Jon=Azor Ahai theory.

You see, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain and his star sigel comes from a sports bet GRRM made with a fan. The sigel, in fact, is the star of the Dallas Cowboys.

It's quite possible that GRRM just wanted to use this as an excuse so we aren't certain (and another reason why he wanted to delay ADWD - so that he had enough time to lose the bet!) It would be rather hilarious how the grand imagery of the prophecies turn out to be so much mundaneness. But the star could also turn out to be absolutely nothing.

[Marsala]

This is my only real objection with the Jon=Azor Ahai theory.

You see, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain and his star sigel comes from a sports bet GRRM made with a fan. The sigel, in fact, is the star of the Dallas Cowboys.

It's quite possible that GRRM just wanted to use this as an excuse so we aren't certain (and another reason why he wanted to delay ADWD - so that he had enough time to lose the bet!) It would be rather hilarious how the grand imagery of the prophecies turn out to be so much mundaneness. But the star could also turn out to be absolutely nothing.

Oh my. That certainly raises the odds that it's all just one big joke on us. No way is the fulfillment of a hundred or thousand year old prophecy going to be a guy who won a football bet.

[Claireducky]

This is my only real objection with the Jon=Azor Ahai theory.

You see, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain and his star sigel comes from a sports bet GRRM made with a fan. The sigel, in fact, is the star of the Dallas Cowboys.

It's quite possible that GRRM just wanted to use this as an excuse so we aren't certain (and another reason why he wanted to delay ADWD - so that he had enough time to lose the bet!) It would be rather hilarious how the grand imagery of the prophecies turn out to be so much mundaneness. But the star could also turn out to be absolutely nothing.

My problem with it is that other versions of the prophecy, even other versions by MELISANDRE, have different wording:

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Stars plural.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Red star. Ser Paetrek's sigil is not a red star.

I do think AA might be Jon, and his dream of his sword burning Red in his hand makes that idea stronger for me. But the star simply cannot be referring to Paetrek.

[Reyne]

Huh, that's very interesting.

In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world

This definitely implies Jon, in that it means that the Azor Ahai moment comes in the winter, AFTER the 'stars bleed.' So the Red Comet could have satisfied that quite well; it never said that the stars were still bleeding after the breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

Oh my. That certainly raises the odds that it's all just one big joke on us. No way is the fulfillment of a hundred or thousand year old prophecy going to be a guy who won a football bet.

It would be rather hilarious if that was the case. I don't know GRRM, so I can't say one way or another.

[ElJackel]

My problem with it is that other versions of the prophecy, even other versions by MELISANDRE, have different wording:

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Stars plural.

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Red star. Ser Paetrek's sigil is not a red star.

I do think AA might be Jon, and his dream of his sword burning Red in his hand makes that idea stronger for me. But the star simply cannot be referring to Paetrek.

Actually... Ser Patrek's star may have been turned red by all the blood. Wun Wun had cuts on his arm and belly and was whiping the corpse about. On page 912 of the American Hardcover, it reads

"The giant was bleeding himself, with sword cuts on his belly and arm. He swung the dead knight against the grey stone of the tower, again and again and again, until the man's head was red and pulpy as a summer melon. The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars."

Then aways down on the same page, Martin specifically uses the phrase "spray of bright red blood" when Wun Wun tears Patrek's arm off.

[Huck]

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Couldn't it also fit to Victarion who was reborn after a lethal wound -- and his arm is still smoking... And it is quite possible that he wakes some stone dragons with his horn.

(I haven't reread the chapter yet, so I don't know whether the red star fits somehow as well.)

[elur]

Dany - Nissa Nissa. Jon - Azor Ahai.

[Ninotchka]

Have you guys thought about... greyscale? I mean, AA shall be reborn to wake dragons out of stone... Greyscale turns people onto stone, right? What if that's the meaning, and Jon has to "wake" Aegon or even Dany out of greyscale? I know, none of them has the disease, but who knows, in fact greyscale IS in Westeros (it was before, but now it's carried by Jon Connington).

Just guessing :blush:

[chrisdaw]

Dany may well be Nissa Nissa, and Drogon may be the fire from which lightbringer is drawn when the fatal blow is pulled from the molten carcass. We've been told much in the way of dragon slaying, maybe for good reason.

[cteresa]

I think it more likely for Dany to be AA and Jon to be Nissa Nissa!

[cteresa]

And just to add some random context, from AFFC, between Marwyn and Sam

Sam hesitated a moment, then told his tale again as Marywn, Alleras, and the other novice listened. “Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy . . . her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall.”

“Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy.” Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. “Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.” He chewed a bit. “Still . . .”

[cteresa]

sorry, double posting attacking again. But taking the opportunity to elaborate.

I think the metaphor is pretty important to take into account for ALL prophecies around.

And Marwyn could not know of Jon´s birth or any such thing - he could not particularly know of Jon´s stabbing because that had not happened yet.

So, we still have some room to argue who is really AA. BUT keep in mind that while GRRM might be playing misdirection a bit (or have something planned that we do not expect) the way the prophecy is applied to Dany is totally clear and has been since the first book. She woke dragons out of stone. Born in salt and smoke. Bleeding star (And no, not a joke refeence to football resulting from a bet while he was writing this latest book)

[Puck6275]

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

In regards to the Red Sword Of heros, am I the only person who thinks thinks this refers to Longcloaw? For, if you remember it was found in the burned out ruins of the Kings Tower after Jon set it on fire to destroy the Wright.

[Forgiven]

Hmnf, I think Melisandre is missinterpreting Rhollor's lies... As in what she's shown is fake and she still gets it wrong. :devil:

[Steve Moss]

This is my only real objection with the Jon=Azor Ahai theory.

You see, Ser Patrek of King's Mountain and his star sigel comes from a sports bet GRRM made with a fan. The sigel, in fact, is the star of the Dallas Cowboys.

It's quite possible that GRRM just wanted to use this as an excuse so we aren't certain (and another reason why he wanted to delay ADWD - so that he had enough time to lose the bet!) It would be rather hilarious how the grand imagery of the prophecies turn out to be so much mundaneness. But the star could also turn out to be absolutely nothing.

There are too many clues and too many potential candidates. It's like Marwyn said, don't get wrapped up in the wording of a prophecy.

And do we know when Jon was born in relation to Dany? Is it possible the Red Comet was in the sky at the same time?

And what were the conditions at the Tower of Joy when Ned [presumably] acquired Jon? We know that Ned build stones from the tower to make cairns, so it may well be the broken tower spoken of in some prophecies, just as the Hand's Keep in KL may be, and as Winterfell may be, Harrenhal and probably a dozen others.

[Raventhal]

Well, one thing we did learn is that the little woman on the hill said that it would be of Aegon V's line right?

How many Targs are alive or at least have the blood?

Some in Dorne probably not Aegon's line.

Then you have Stannis, Shiren, roberts bastards but probably not of Aegon's line.

Maybe Jon Snow and Young Griff who would be Of Aegons line.

The only certain is Dany.

EDIT: It wasn't Aegon V because Stannis is a decendant. It was Jaehaerys II. Its easy to forget that Robert and Aerys were cousins. Stannis and Dany as well. Going by prophecy the only possible ones are Dany, Jon and Aegon to be Prince that was Promised.

Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?”

“Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”

“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished. “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.

[Mark3]

And do we know when Jon was born in relation to Dany? Is it possible the Red Comet was in the sky at the same time?

Hard to get exact dates, but Jon is probably a few months older. Although it could be very, very close. After KL was sacked, Ned heads south to lift the siege at Storm's End. Then he departs for Dorne and the tower of Joy. Stannis takes control of the fleet and sails from Storm's End to Dragonstone. Jon is born as Ned reaches the ToJ, and Daenerys is born just before Stannis's fleet reaches Dragonstone - so it could be very close indeed.

[Mark3]

Well, one thing we did learn is that the little woman on the hill said that it would be of Aegon V's line right?

How many Targs are alive or at least have the blood?

Some in Dorne probably not Aegon's line.

Then you have Stannis, Shiren, roberts bastards but probably not of Aegon's line.

Maybe Jon Snow and Young Griff who would be Of Aegons line.

The only certain is Dany.

EDIT: It wasn't Aegon V because Stannis is a decendant. It was Jaehaerys II. Its easy to forget that Robert and Aerys were cousins. Stannis and Dany as well. Going by prophecy the only possible ones are Dany, Jon and Aegon to be Prince that was Promised.

Yeah, it wasn't Aegon. Barristan tells Dany that her grandsire (Jaeherys II) dictated who her father would marry because the woods witch told him the PwP would come from his line. So if the witch is right, the Prince would come from the descendants of Jaeherys. The remaining ones we know about are Dany (definitely), Jon (almost definitely), and Aegon (maybe).