Jump to content

[ADwD Spoilers] The Grand Faceless Men Conspiracy Theory


Toe

Recommended Posts

"There is simply no alternative theory that explains all of the actions of of Varys, Qyburn, Jaqen, the FM in general, as well as many other mysteries. Yes, if you look at one action at a time but not for all them. Varys undermining the rule of Aerys? Well, he is anti-Targaryen. Varys helping Dany? Well, he is pro-Targaryen. Varys saving Robert's bastards? Well, he is pro-Baratheon. And so on... See also the section "Alternative Varys theories" above."

Being Pro-Blackfyre would make sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really love this theory.

I don't buy the FM grand conspiracy as the link to it all. Its a stretch to call the FM a "death cult," painting them as fervent followers of the many faced god in an apocolypse style mass murder of the world. If any of that was the case you'd see indoctrination of Arya into this way of thinking. To carry out this thread, FM as a group would need to be aware of the plan and agree to the tenants as it's foundation. It's has to be this way or the plot would not carry from one generation of FM to the next.

I do think you've highlighted something that's left quiet questions in the back of my mind. There are underlying connections. Your right, JH explination for Arya's three deaths doesn't make sense. The others are a loose thread at this point, there is some deep connection to something going on in westeros but it's not been revealed.

Vayrs is a huge mystery when trying to understand his motivations, even the "I hate magic," explination doesn't tie him together. Why undermine the Targ's only to heavily support Dany? We've seen a lot of evidence for this at this point. It does occur to me that Varys might follow Barristan/Jorah's same logic. He see's Dany as the true ruler of Westeros, the one who will bring lasting peace to the realm like her Targ ancestors before her. Dany as queen with her dragon's would not only provide a strong ruler with a powerful claim to the throne, but also a very strong defense against the WW threat even if the wall falls. The WW seem like the great looming threat. A lot of fear surrounds them with the entire north, and concern is spreading with Stanis arrival and Mel affirmation.

There is a dichotomy to the Red God and the WW, but I don't think either is connected to the old gods, because the first followers of the old gods the CoTF taught the first men how to fight the others. Also I think the Red Priests are really the only one's to see all other god's but their own to be just another version of the "dark," to their light. Thus they seek the destruction of all other God's.

The other religions for the most part are pretty harmonous, though we get introduced to a fundamentalist streak in the seven's past with ADWD.

More likely, in keeping with GRRM style, there are a variety of competing interests. Each with opposing, overlapping and mutual conspiracies. Probably why it's so easy to see a Grand conspiracy in the cake batter.

I love that you stuck your neck out there though. I really have no other potential weaving plots similar to yours. Mostly because there is still too little known, to many unanswered questions, to much hidden.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You make some good points but it's too long to pick apart individually, I don't have the patience to. Appreciate the thought though.

A critical bone I have to pick with this though is that it makes the critical assumption that The Others are (1) evil and (2) interested in conquest. Without going into exhaustive detail, consider this riddle: everything we've been told about The Others has come from one of three sources: (1) two first hand-accounts, both members of the Night's Watch, (2) Old Nan's stories, (3) second-hand information from other lore-knowing characters. There's little doubt that The Others are hostile to humans, as are their wights, but we have yet to really understand them and more importantly our scant understanding of them comes from incredibly biased sources. I'm not suggesting they're hidden heroes or anything, but there's more to The Others than just being an evil force in the world.

Martin's stated in interviews one big gripe he has with fantasy-fiction in general is that it's obsessed with black-and-white, good and evil, etc. It's a legacy of Tolkien we've been unable to shed, and worse even Tolkien himself left room for nuance in characters (Gollum epitomizes this)- it's the derivatives of Tolkien that have taken it to a ridiculous level. It would strike me as incredibly hypocritical and unbecoming of him to have his world essentially be that black-and-white, with the Faceless Men pulling the strings of everyone to prep for an Others invasion (if such a thing can occur).

I think you're spot-on with wondering what role the Faceless Men have with regards to Valyria, and you definitely make a few compelling points about Varys and who he truly serves- but the rest I don't buy, nor the idea of a binary Grand Conspiracy. Whatever the FM and Others are involved in, its deeper than two players and for complicated motivations that are most likely connect at some areas and separate at others. A shared agenda is not something I find very likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

If anyone just saw tonight's episode, there was another hint for this theory. When Melisandre and Arya met and she looked into Arya's eyes, she said that the saw death (The Great Other), and saw many eyes (the faces Arya will wear), and that they will meet again. It also seemed to me that she regarded her as an enemy. If Melisandre sees the FM as an enemy, it could be that they are enemies. Or it could just be a reference to Arya being a faceless (wo)man. She also said that they would meet again, which was interesting as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I enjoyed reading this. It's thoughtful and very well-written. I'm not sure I believe it though (at least, not all of it). The idea of Varys being more than just Illyrio's partner in crime intrigues me, and it would be a cool twist if he actually had FM ties. But I think you're putting too much stock into Varys (and the FM) being the ultimate manipulator of everyone behind the scenes. He might be the spider, but I find it hard to believe that he's masterminding every plotline in the books, from KingsLanding and Essos to the North and the Night's Watch. Still, a great read, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

first of all this is probably the most amazing feat of detective work in living memory and i have never been more convinced of an ideas truth.

also i preface my following theories by saying that if i dont touch on a particular point made in the original post it is because i agree with it, and as will become evident i still agree with the rest but have elaborating theories.

anyway:

Maybe the FM realized Arya Starks potential before you noted and that Syrio Forel is yet another face of Jaqen H'ghar, also there can be no doubt that you are right in saying that Jaqen was with Yoren's group by design because how exactly would you go about not only capturing a faceless man but also keeping him captive if he does not want to be caught?

you brought up the point that the FM want the Others to succeed because all men must die (valar morghulis) and went on to debate why they would support the creation of wights, it seems perfectly obvious to me that that is because all men must serve (valar dohaeris) as in they must serve the Others (by extension the FM) in bringing the gift to all the world, which could be why the FM are gathering corpses that can be turned to wights and thereby serve the realm.

speaking of the realm.

i believe when Varys says he works for the good of the realm he doesn't mean the people, the governing body or anything other that preventing the red god (or some other faction/entity) from burning the world.

another note i can make in response to the statement made by GRRM that the world of ASoIaF is made to be as diverse as ours, brought to mind what Ramsay Bolton said to Theon "you forgot to ask if i am a liar" because i feel like Ramsay might be occasionally used as a 4. wall breaker, like when he says "if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention" he says it to the reader because, as some have pointed out, the Others seem almost like a forced fantasy gimmick due to their lack of import in the grand scheme of things, well only if you havent been paying close attention.

i believe the story will end with the total extermination of everyone at the hands of the Others, and i have absolutely no problem with that because it will be a twist for the ages.

as a final note i dont believe the Other to be evil, just as Robb stark killed Lannister soldiers to try and claim the north (do we consider him evil?) the Others kill to protect the land from the destructive fire magic of R'hllor and the dragons.

also... Illuminati = FM so yea rooted in our world alright.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I can see a few of the characters we've known turning out to be FM. I'd be disappointed if none of them were. Martin has written them to be mysterious and extremely intriguing.

Is a large FM conspiracy at play in asoiaf? Probably. I think the problem is that it wont be "Grand." There's just too many forces at play for one group to be in total control (If that's what you're implying).

I think youve got a lot of it right, particularly the Jaqen/Arya part. It definitely seemed as if he was seducing her in a way. Having to give 3 deaths to the lord of light, because Arya saved Jaqen and his companions seems like an excuse to begin a dialogue with Arya. Surely a FM could get out of a burning wagon if he really wanted to, right? Jaqen used this as an excuse to begin the recruiting process (I know, it may have started much earlier, but this is where it started for the Jaqen character).

Are there any other instances in asoiaf where someone claimed Rhlorr was owed lives when people were saved from death?

Letting her play the Ghost of Harenhal gave her a lust for that kind of power, but it was also a test. The increasing boldness of her choices should be noted. First, a rapist, second someone who had hit her, and lastly Jaqen himself as a ploy for escaping Harrenal. Her value for human life is showing notable signs of diminishment, and she demonstrated the willingness to manipulate someone to get what she wanted. AND the person she chose to manipulate was a FM!!! This surely impressed the FM.

It also seems likely that he recruited her because she was a Stark. No telling what that will mean, or how it will play out in the upcoming books.

Anyway, great read and great comments/criticisms. Even if youre completely wrong, you make a lot of points that are worth consideration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Varys hates magic. If he was a faceless man he would be out killing people, not working a network of spies. He was the only true advisor to the mad king, telling him not to let Tywin in to the city. When asked by Tyrion who he serves, he responds with "the realm, someone has to." The mad king trusted varys and respected his skills. Varys knows this which is why he is working so hard to put Aegon back on the iron throne. Killing Kevan and leading Tyrion to Tywins chamber. Leaving a Tyrell coin under the bed in "Rungen's" cell, telling Eddard (and possibly John Aryn) about Roberts bastards. Being friends with the man who set up the wedding between Drogo and Danny all points to him being very pro Targ.

Syrio was the first sword of Bravos, not a faceless man.

The FM were very anti dragon, and they do what they do for money, nothing more. The cost is dependent on how important the victim is. Slaves have it done for almost nothing. Folks in Bravos give up their worldly goods when they go to the House to die. Euron could have killed Balon if he had a dragon's egg.

Quyburn lost his chain for his experiments in necromancy on living people.

I guess the point is, a grand unified theory would be boring. A world where the good and honorable die horrible deaths and the schemers rise is far more intriguing. everyone working their own agenda to get done what they want is a far more human explanation

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The FM are assasins nothing more their is no conspiracy, an assasin is hired for a job, and will work said job for the betterment of said group. So we will see what the FM have up their sleeves by the missions, FM are sent on and the jobs they take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

i also don't buy thu it doesn't mean everything there is wrong :

- Varys/Qyburn seems very plausible

- the Jaquen question raised is very good

but i have to agree with Ahmrogar about the rest

I don't buy it. For one, it's circumstantial, and for two your arguement is inconsistent

i still enjoyed the read i think u did great job :cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really buy this theory. It seems too much, even for GRRM. I've always had a lot of trouble with these theories that take little, seemingly throwaway lines of text and take them to be the ultimate clue as to the conclusion of this story; then again, maybe I'm on the wrong website :)

Also, if R'hllor turns out to be the one true God and the Old Gods are evil and embodiments of the Great Other, then I might throw the book at the Wall. I didn't laugh, cry, race and slog my way through 5 excellent books for the conclusion to be another sh*tty bible message.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see Varys as a FM, though I concede he' eerily good at disguises.

I don't think the FM want to kill everyone. For death to have value there must be life., otherwise there is also an end to death.

I do think the people of Bravos would like to see Dany's dragons die, but she's sending mixed messages with the anti-slavery thing.

As to Syrio, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I hope Syrio is just what he appears; a brave, kind man (one of the few genuine ones we've seen in this story so far), who just happens to be the former First Sword.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with the point you made about Bran

I can also see a lot of similarities between the Nights Watch and the Faceless Men as organisations. Both have to give up everything they had prior to joining (lands, titles, name), the nights watch takes no part in the political problems of the realm while the faceless men kill who they are paid too (a similar, unbiased motive).

With two stark-blooded family members now apart of both groups, Brans prophecy could come to fruition though im not yet sure how it will eventuate and unfold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anyone just saw tonight's episode, there was another hint for this theory. When Melisandre and Arya met and she looked into Arya's eyes, she said that the saw death (The Great Other), and saw many eyes (the faces Arya will wear), and that they will meet again. It also seemed to me that she regarded her as an enemy. If Melisandre sees the FM as an enemy, it could be that they are enemies. Or it could just be a reference to Arya being a faceless (wo)man. She also said that they would meet again, which was interesting as well.

They met? Wtf are they doing on that show? lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would add one thing to the theory. Other than in the North the Watch has lost a great deal of repute despite being praised by Queen Alysanne and getting some benefit there. I think the precipitous decline of the last couple hundred years was caused by the Maesters.

Even if they aren't involved, in this conspiracy somehow, they would certainly not advocate sending the kids of their Southern Lords off to the Wall to await some magical enemy. I am guessing the loss of noble leaders willingly joining led to nobody else really willing to join and that's when it switched to being almost entirely criminals being sent from the South.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate the effort you have put into this post but as a whoil the FMC seems too farfetched and too outside the main storyline to be the answer to what is the song of ice and fire. The theory also leaves out major elements of the story to date namely the significance of R+L=J and the COTF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...