Ser Frank Haven Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Could Griffin and prince be the mummers dragon from the prophecies? But if vary's is pushing a pro-targ agenda he would least know the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PantheraOnca Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Wasn't Varys a mummer at some point in his life? I take "mummer's dragon" to mean "Varys' dragon."Which I GUESS could apply to Dany to (being a mummer's dragon in the above sense) but it seems like Varys has more involvement in Griff Jr. than Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Frank Haven Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Wasn't Varys a mummer at some point in his life? I take "mummer's dragon" to mean "Varys' dragon."Which I GUESS could apply to Dany to (being a mummer's dragon in the above sense) but it seems like Varys has more involvement in Griff Jr. than Dany.There might even be a show down between the prince and Dany which is why the book took its title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Pasties Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I assumed that the Mummer's dragon was a fake dragon, and was a hint that Young Griff is not the real baby Aegon, but has been set up by Illyrio & co to take the throne anyway. This would explain why Quaithe warned Dany about the Mummer's dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endur Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I'm pretty sure that the phrase "Mummer's Dragon" refers to the relationship between Varys and Aegon VI.On page 958-959 (us hard cover edition), Varys talks about Aegon with pride ..."Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."The word mummer refers to Varys because Varys was a mummer when he was young, and he has referred to mummers in some of his conversations.I think this is the real Aegon, that Varys did not lie to Jon Connington about the origin of the baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unreliable Narrator Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 There is also the mummery involved in hiding the true identities of him and his entourage. In a sense, they're all mummers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cydal Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Wasn't Varys a mummer at some point in his life? I take "mummer's dragon" to mean "Varys' dragon."Which I GUESS could apply to Dany to (being a mummer's dragon in the above sense) but it seems like Varys has more involvement in Griff Jr. than Dany.Thank youuuu. I mentioned this once before but it seems everyone only like the fake targ or Aegon being a blackfyre and i pointed out that even as a blackfyre, he's still a dragon & wouldn't be fake dragon as they say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Efilnikufesin Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I assumed that the Mummer's dragon was a fake dragon, and was a hint that Young Griff is not the real baby Aegon, but has been set up by Illyrio & co to take the throne anyway. This would explain why Quaithe warned Dany about the Mummer's dragon.Could be, but I also took it to mean that they have been lying about his identity i.e. Young Griff, but it can be taken both ways till we have more knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dirt Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 At this point I buy that Young Griff is the mummer's dragon and that we really don't have enough info to determine if he is really Aegon. Regardless of if Young Griff is really Aegon the warning is still pertinent. Dany is setting herself up to invade and become the ruler of Westeros. Young Griff has done the same thing. Their motives, while reconcilable, are still at odds. If Aegon is real then he has a better claim to the throne but as we saw with the Baratheons, that doesn't mean a thing. So whether or not he is really the baby that escaped The Mountain they have conflict to resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 http://www.westeros.org/ASoWS/News/Entry/Video_Series_Discussing_A_Dance_with_Dragons/I found this to be an interesting discussion about Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Griffin Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Another possibility... Tyrion is the mummer. He did learn to joust on dogback. And that would make Daenerys the mummer's dragon, wouldn't it? Granted, this stretches plausibility.I think that Aegon is the best choice for the mummer's dragon in the prophecy; the question is, does that mean he's a fake dragon (a Lyseni or a Blackfyre descendant through the female line) or that he's the legitimate Aegon, and merely the puppet of the mummer we all assume is Varys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Crannogman Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 i understand the whole "Varys'" dragon=mummer's dragon theory, but I disagree. Varys hasn't been a mummer since before Aegon was born, and it seems a little ridiculous for Quaithe to refer to him as a mummer now. I think Young Griff is a fake Aegon, and Dany will ultimately expose him. (the original mummer's dragon prophecy was listed in the "slayer of lies" verse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon23 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'm pretty sure that the phrase "Mummer's Dragon" refers to the relationship between Varys and Aegon VI.On page 958-959 (us hard cover edition), Varys talks about Aegon with pride ..."Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."The word mummer refers to Varys because Varys was a mummer when he was young, and he has referred to mummers in some of his conversations.I think this is the real Aegon, that Varys did not lie to Jon Connington about the origin of the baby.Yes - "Mummer's Dragon" does not explicitly mean "false". One can draw what inferences one likes, but this has yet to be substantiated in the story. I think Young Griff is indeed Aegon, and the true center of the Varys/Illyrio plot.Illyrio housed Daenerys and Viserys for some time. He housed, clothed and fed them. But he did not have them educated in the manner that Varys knows that the Young Griff has been. Viserys and his sister were allowed to run their course to keep Robert's suspicious eye upon these known surviving Targaryens, hounded from city to city, while Young Griff remained safely anonymous.Whatever Illyrio Mopatis is to Daenerys, he is no friend. I think all the aid he has given her or her late brother was a way of keeping them a.) alive and b.) before the eyes of the world. Think how quickly Robert learned that she was pregnant.So given the care to not draw notice to Young Griff / Aegon, plus the care taken with his upbringing, I think that Varys at least believes him to be the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duskfire Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I took it to mean that he is Varys dragon. I just dont see the point of him being a fake. If he were, he would have been introduced in the series earlier. It just adds to much to an already well-detailed plot.In any case, even if he were fake, I doubt it would make a difference. Varys and Illyrio are probably the only ones who know about it, and they aren't going to tell anyone. I cant see how Dany would reveal him as a fraud either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liadin Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I took it to mean that he is Varys dragon. I just dont see the point of him being a fake. If he were, he would have been introduced in the series earlier. It just adds to much to an already well-detailed plot.Seems to me that if he were real, he'd have been introduced earlier. He has the potential to be hugely important to the plot, and so when he doesn't show up till Book 5, it looks to me like he isn't going to be that important after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordswench Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I get the feeling Aegon is destined to be the ill-fated dauphin type character here, which is why we haven't seen much from him before this. He's there like a piece of living pro-Targaryen agit-prop, but won't ultimately take the throne because there are still many in Westeros loyal to the Lannister-Baratheon 'dynasty'-- and too few to openly rebel against the Lannisters and all of their other allies, even if they do believe in Aegon's claim to the throne. Everyone on the Lannister side of this conflict has a vested interest in preserving Tommen's crown -- from the Boltons re: Ramsay's newfound legitimacy, to the Tyrells, trying to keep Margaery's status as queen in tact.Aegon's going to have a very hard time securing alliess, IMO. Sure he'll get Dorne, but who else, as long as the Lannisters continue to hold the seat of power in KL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freygatarian Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 It seems odd that she would refer to Varys as a mummer. Yes he was a mummer 384827 years ago, but he was also a thief previously, and then a spymaster for many years. I worked in an ice cream shop when I was 8, so according to Quaithe if I helped Aegon then he'd be 'the ice cream man's dragon.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Guys, "mummer's dragon" is only the words Jorah put on Dany's vision. We do have the vision, it's in the "slayer of lies" triplet:Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.... mother of dragons, slayer of lies...From that point, it has been obvious a fake Aegon would pop up, and be unmasked by Dany. (By the same token, Stannis will be proved to be no AA by Dany, no idea who is the stone beast, maybe Melisandre's concept of making stone dragons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelinor Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Guys, "mummer's dragon" is only the words Jorah put on Dany's vision. We do have the vision, it's in the "slayer of lies" triplet:Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.... mother of dragons, slayer of lies...From that point, it has been obvious a fake Aegon would pop up, and be unmasked by Dany. (By the same token, Stannis will be proved to be no AA by Dany, no idea who is the stone beast, maybe Melisandre's concept of making stone dragons)Nah Quaithe says specifically mummer's dragon: “No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Nah Quaithe says specifically mummer's dragon: “No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.”Yes, and as Errant Bard said in his post, the mummer's dragon was first mentioned by Dany and Ser Jorah in ACoK. Dany uses the term to describe the cloth dragon she saw in the House of the Undying. The vision she saw there is important, and not just for the words used to describe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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