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My end-of-book thoughts


SqueakyG

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Hi,

I'm so glad I found this board. Like many people, I was inspired to read the books because of the TV show and I have now just finished ACoK. But there is nowhere on the internet to discuss things if you're at a mid point in the series. I'm avoiding spoilers like the plague, but this requires total avoidance of everything related to A Song of Ice and Fire on the internet. I was unfortunately spoiled about some huge things that are going to happen at a wedding :angry2: and I don't want that to happen again. So I'm glad this sub-forum exists.

I wanted to put down my thoughts about A Clash of Kings before I wade into the next book. This post has spoilers all the way to the end of ACoK!! Please only read this once you've finished the book.

Okay!

First of all, I'm wondering what kind of TV season it is going to turn into. In many ways the book is just as good as AGoT, continuing and escalating the intrigue and awesome events. But I'm not sure it has the same satisfying structure that came naturally to the first season. There is no beginning or ending, everyone is in flux. Some characters have very irregular appearances: King Robb is hardly seen in person, Jaime is sat in a dungeon throughout, Littlefinger disappears for most of the book, and Daenerys doesn't really make much progress. Of course the TV writers can create more scenes for these characters if they wish -- I imagine they'll show Jaime's escape attempt, and what Littlefinger did at Bitterbridge, and find ways to put Dany in every episode.

This book introduces magic and sorcery as a much more pronounced aspect of GRRM's world, and I'm not sure how to feel about that. In some ways I love the potential for storytelling and the sense of imagination. However the problem with magic is that the books have been set up so well WITHOUT it. The characters live in such a functional world where everything makes sense. Magic can only screw that up! But I'm not complaining. I like how the alchemist tells Tyrion that it has become easier to make wildfire again, as an indicator to us that magic has re-entered the world with the birth of Dany's dragons.

I think I'll go through the main strands one by one.

BRAN:

Bran's chapters started out as the most boring. They had my least favourite aspect of GRRM's writing: long lists of food dishes at feasts and long lists of lords and sers and highborns. Serving as the resident Stark at Winterfell Bran has to be at these feasts, and it's bloody difficult for the reader. Thankfully his story gets a little more interesting when Bran develops a real connection with Summer while he dreams.

Osha has become a favourite secondary character of mine, perhaps because of her portrayal in the TV show by Natalia Tena. I like her loyalty and her friendship to Bran - and the brief dismay when we think she has bent the knee to Theon. She even gets a nude scene (though it's not attractive!) Maester Luwin is also very likeable, and has one of the saddest deaths.

I must say that GRRM is a sadistic bastard. It's bad enough knowing that these books have shocking deaths -- when Ned was executed I went into denial and needed the next chapter to confirm it. So to make us think that Bran and Rickon were dead for about 6 chapters?? Now I know that this trick is in the author's repertoire, I can never trust a reported death again!

THEON:

What a prick. I didn't like him much in the first book or the TV show, and now we see things from his POV he is even more unpleasant. You can guarantee his chapters will have crude sex scenes and use of the c-word (because this is Theon's mindset). I have to say that this book contains the single worst line of dialogue I have ever read in literature. It's actually Asha's line: "Oh, is it love we’re talking now? And here I thought it was just cocks and cunts." Though I do like the way she completely makes a fool of him.

Even unpleasant characters have understandable motives. I don't quite feel sorry for Theon, but his plot is a tragedy of inadequacy and spoiled rage. Considered inferior by his father, emasculated by his sister, disconnected to his homeland, not really loved by anyone, and with a military strategy that puts him in a pathetic lose-lose situation. And it's all his own fault. The prick.

ARYA:

Arry! Weasel! Nan! A favourite character from the first book, she has quite an interesting journey here. At first I even imagined her reaching The Wall and being in the Nights Watch. Her chapters are first used to show us the real consequences of war: the rape and pillage and sacking and ruin of the common people when their Lords go to war. I got a good sense of how dangerous these lands were. Then the big fight against the Lannister soldiers! I loved it when Arya shouts "Winterfell!" as she slices at people with Needle, and Hot Pie shouts "Hot Pie!" I would like to say that Arya's relationship with Gendry has chemistry, but she's ten, so um.

Gendry and Hot Pie reach a point where life at Harrenhal is no worse than the lives they had before, but Arya has much more of a mission in life. Her nightly prayer: the names of everyone she intends to kill, so that they are never forgotten by time or acceptance of her situation. Jaqen H'ghar becomes interesting in his last scene where he changes his face... yet more magic. I'm sure there must have been an infinite number of discussion threads about this, but since I cannot read them while I'm stuck at this point in the books, I have to voice my idea: Could Jaqen be Syrio? That's just wishful thinking. Arya is now determined to go to Riverrun, but I kind of wish she'd go to Braavos!

I was wondering whether Arya would reveal herself to Roose Bolton. After all, he is a Northman who took Harrenhal in the name of Robb. But when you see him with the leeches you get the feeling he's a creepy bastard, and probably best for Arya not to declare her identity. Then of course there is the activity of Roose Bolton's bastard, who seems to be a villain in the story. How connected are Ramsey Snow's actions to his father's?

DAENERYS:

I don't think Daenerys had very much to do in this book, certainly not the same amount of character development we saw in the first. In fact I struggle to think how any of her chapters were necessary. They crossed a desert (losing Doreah, no!), stayed in a dead city, went to a rich and populated city, had a trippy experience. Although not much actually happened, I thought the Dany chapters were the most imaginative and visual scenes in the book. The chapter where she goes to see the Undying Ones is fantastic, and I only hope the TV show has a good enough budget and director to do it justice.

JON:

This is another strand that started fairly slowly, although I like the descriptions of the lands beyond the wall. Of all the plot strands, this is the one that feels rather like a fantasy journey in a strange land where magical creatures may live. I've had some trouble understanding why the Night's Watch fight the wildlings... they are just other human beings, albeit savages. Why are they the enemy? I'm not sure this book made things clearer for me... unless Jon's vision - through Ghost's eyes - is that the wildlings are working WITH the Others and the giants in order to get through the wall. This plot strand finally gets interesting when it sets up Jon as a spy who will infiltrate the wildlings. Maybe in the next book we'll get to see Mance Rayder?

TYRION:

A favourite character, and always the most welcome chapters. Watching Tyrion clean house at King's Landing, prepare for invasion, and keep his devious family under control, is definitely the highlight of the book. Technically he is helping to further the reign of Joffrey and the dominance of House Lannister, so he's kind of a baddie... but he's also the most respectable and impressive character in the series. I loved the way he got rid of Janos Slynt, arrested Pycelle (after determining that the poison used to kill Jon Arryn must have come from him), and even poisoned Cersei... not to kill her, just to give her the shits so that she couldn't attend Council meetings! It's also good to have it clarified that Tyrion knows of the incest. But some mysteries remain... did this book explain who hired Bran's assassin, or who owned the knife?

DAVOS:

The activities of Stannis needed a POV character, and thankfully it wasn't Stannis himself. The Onion Knight is very likeable, but the same can't be said for the wicked things happening around Stannis. The man himself is noble enough, however harsh and unloved he may be. I liked the campaign of propaganda -- as much as you can achieve in a world without a printing press: sending ravens to all maesters with the info that Joffrey is an incest abomination. Of course, Cersei's council launch counter-gossip to keep the smallfolk chattering!

But this monotheistic religion that has crept into Stannis's house... and Melisandre... it's fascinating stuff. I can't imagine the common folk reacting well if you burn down their Sept and destroy the statues of their gods. I wasn't completely clear about Melisandre's sorcery. She "birthed" some kind of shadow to kill people, but I'm not sure what this means. Is the shadow supposed to be Stannis, or something altogether different?

I realise I have written a lot, and haven't even said anything about Sansa or Catelyn... oh well. Let's just finish with some random thoughts:

I don't think the book ends as strongly as AGoT. There we ended with the iconic and meaningful sight of Dany with her dragons, but here the book just seems to run out of pages. The Battle of the Blackwater is clearly the awesome climax to this book -- and by the way, how in the seven hells are HBO going to put THAT on the screen?

The book finishes without telling us the condition of several characters. Stannis: is he alive or dead? Was he captured or did he escape? Theon: alive or dead? Davos: alive or dead? What was up with the sighting of Renly at the battle?

I love that Joffrey stabs himself on the iron throne and shrieks for his mother. And the riot where someone throws shit at his head. Basically anything where Joffrey gets hurt or humiliated!

RIP: Rodrik Cassel, Maester Luwin, Renly Baratheon, Yoren, Lommy, Doreah, Mikken... who else?

Now on to A Storm of Swords. I reckon I'll get through a whole Kindle battery charge with this one... :read:

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I agree with pretty much everything you've said! I had similar 'issues' when I read ACOK.

The Bran storyline was mind numbing at first. I seriously did not care who was feasting who, or who was visiting. I don't like the wolf dreams either, they are completely drawn out and very little importance has come out of them as of yet.

Daenery's storyline was borderline pointless. Finding the abandoned city just felt like a huge plot device to bulk out the book! It got a little exciting with the warlock temple, but it still didn't move her storyline along much, apart from to give her their 'warning' or 'prophecy'.

Davos was a big favourite for me however, but he only gets 3 or 4 chapters which is a shame considering the amount Arya gets.

I actually really liked Theon's storyline, even though he was a huge douche! Watching his twisted mind try to please his father, only for things to completely back fire was almost tragic.

I'm not convinced that ACOK will translate as easily into a show as AGOT did however, as like you've said many characters aren't in it, and a few of the characters story lines slow down to snails pace. I hope they put in Jaime's escape attempt and some of Robb's battle to still give the actors their screen time.

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You raised some interesting points a couple of which I wanted to expand if I might:

Religion seems to be very much the key to this particular entry, or perhaps more accurately, how man uses the supernatural (or what is thought to be supernatural) to further political or personal ambition. Everyone interprets the comet ( a completely natural phenomenon in our world, in Martin's who knows?)as an omen that their personal ambitions are bound to succeed. Then religion is used by most of them to get others to fall in line. We have the monotheisms represented by R'hollor and the Drowned God, the polytheisms of the Seven and the Old Gods, etc. each being employed to either justify or motivate the ambitions of most characters involved.

Also, the reading makes me wonder if this isn't perhaps a veiled criticism of monotheism as a whole or at least how it is employed by many today. In reading the text, the followers of the single gods are the most extreme and least likable, filled with certainty and preaching absolutes, while the polytheistic tend to be far more vague and willing to question events and motivations. I have no idea about Martin's personal spiritual convictions if any, just some thoughts as I was reading.

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I agree with pretty much everything you've said! I had similar 'issues' when I read ACOK.

The Bran storyline was mind numbing at first. I seriously did not care who was feasting who, or who was visiting. I don't like the wolf dreams either, they are completely drawn out and very little importance has come out of them as of yet.

Daenery's storyline was borderline pointless. Finding the abandoned city just felt like a huge plot device to bulk out the book! It got a little exciting with the warlock temple, but it still didn't move her storyline along much, apart from to give her their 'warning' or 'prophecy'.

Davos was a big favourite for me however, but he only gets 3 or 4 chapters which is a shame considering the amount Arya gets.

I actually really liked Theon's storyline, even though he was a huge douche! Watching his twisted mind try to please his father, only for things to completely back fire was almost tragic.

I'm not convinced that ACOK will translate as easily into a show as AGOT did however, as like you've said many characters aren't in it, and a few of the characters story lines slow down to snails pace. I hope they put in Jaime's escape attempt and some of Robb's battle to still give the actors their screen time.

the only thing i thought the tv series lacked was the bigger fight scenes, but as i tv series i can understand why they were not actually there, but after finishing a clash of kings there are quite a few bigger scenes and im just worried that they will end up missing these out like they did before.

i agree that this book was more of a slower pace for alot of the characters and im a bit disapointed that rob did not feature that much especially towards the end were all you seemed to read about was sansa, arya and tyrion. frankly i find the sansa and arya stories either the more boring of the characters or in the case of arya and harrenhal i lost track off what was actually going on though the coin she recieves really does interest me

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You raised some interesting points a couple of which I wanted to expand if I might:

Religion seems to be very much the key to this particular entry, or perhaps more accurately, how man uses the supernatural (or what is thought to be supernatural) to further political or personal ambition. Everyone interprets the comet ( a completely natural phenomenon in our world, in Martin's who knows?)as an omen that their personal ambitions are bound to succeed. Then religion is used by most of them to get others to fall in line. We have the monotheisms represented by R'hollor and the Drowned God, the polytheisms of the Seven and the Old Gods, etc. each being employed to either justify or motivate the ambitions of most characters involved.

Also, the reading makes me wonder if this isn't perhaps a veiled criticism of monotheism as a whole or at least how it is employed by many today. In reading the text, the followers of the single gods are the most extreme and least likable, filled with certainty and preaching absolutes, while the polytheistic tend to be far more vague and willing to question events and motivations. I have no idea about Martin's personal spiritual convictions if any, just some thoughts as I was reading.

I believe the old gods are more pagan themed, than polytheistic.

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I agree with about 90% of this post. Some of my thoughts on it:

Some characters have very irregular appearances: King Robb is hardly seen in person, Jaime is sat in a dungeon throughout, Littlefinger disappears for most of the book, and Daenerys doesn't really make much progress. Of course the TV writers can create more scenes for these characters if they wish -- I imagine they'll show Jaime's escape attempt, and what Littlefinger did at Bitterbridge, and find ways to put Dany in every episode.

I think with the likes of Robb it won't be too hard to create scenes for the show and place them in, we're nearly always aware of where about he is and of course we know the characters that surround him, so it shouldn't be too hard. I'd love to see a couple of his battles.

This book introduces magic and sorcery as a much more pronounced aspect of GRRM's world, and I'm not sure how to feel about that. In some ways I love the potential for storytelling and the sense of imagination. However the problem with magic is that the books have been set up so well WITHOUT it. The characters live in such a functional world where everything makes sense. Magic can only screw that up! But I'm not complaining.

Again this is exactly how I felt. I'd have preffered it if Melisandre didn't exist and Stannis had to take on Renly in battle, etc. But it's ok, it does at a bit more of an interesting feel to the story. I just hope it doesn't become too prominent.

THEON:I don't quite feel sorry for Theon, but his plot is a tragedy of inadequacy and spoiled rage. Considered inferior by his father, emasculated by his sister, disconnected to his homeland, not really loved by anyone, and with a military strategy that puts him in a pathetic lose-lose situation. And it's all his own fault. The prick.

:lmao:

I'm actually finding it really hard to like or dislike Theon. At one minute I like him, the next I hate him. I always look forward to his chapters.

I'm sure there must have been an infinite number of discussion threads about this, but since I cannot read them while I'm stuck at this point in the books, I have to voice my idea: Could Jaqen be Syrio?

I would love that!!

DAENERYS:

Definitely the worst chapters of the book for me. Nothing at all happened really apart from the Undying chapter.

did this book explain who hired Bran's assassin, or who owned the knife?

This is something that is sticking out a lot for me. There is something very important about who sent the assassin to kill Bran, or why else drag it out so long?

She "birthed" some kind of shadow to kill people, but I'm not sure what this means. Is the shadow supposed to be Stannis, or something altogether different?

This was part of the book that confused me.. Where the chapter ends with a line like "Davos saw the shadow dissapear quickly, but he still knew he recognized it." Only thing that I can think of is that it was Stannis.

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Just as a follow-up to my original post about the religious themes and whether Martin is engaging in a critique of monotheism:

If one were to look at it from another perspective the evidence of such a critique could pretty much turned on its head. For instance if one were looking for simple evidence that the god(s) the characters are praying to actually exist, then the monotheistic religions (and here I mean specifically the worship of R'hollor) would be way ahead.

Several characters express a great deal of doubt as to their existence, and if not their existence at least about whether they indeed are merciful given how horrible their world tends to be (not unlike ours in that, I would say.) But if you were basing your belief on impossible acts that the servants of the god are able to perform the "Lord of Light" would seem to warrant an extended second look. Granted, most of the miracles or magic we see performed in the R'hollor's name are pretty creepy, but I imagine that most any miracle would probably come across as creepy if we were to witness it taking place. Suspension of natural law would be rather unsettling one would think.

This is only from the second book of course. In later books other information comes out that might give one pause in her evaluation of deities and their potential existence. It would be nice if Martin ever actually deals with the underlying metaphysical basis for this world as opposed to vague hints that can be interpreted in various ways. :bowdown:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Great post, and I agree on pretty much everything that was said. I just finished the book last night and was thinking most of the same things...

Folks who only watch the TV show and do not read the books are going to be highly dissapointed when next season finally airs. They will probably expect to see Dany flying on the backs of dragons and burning cities to the ground, but all they are going to see is her riding around the desert with very little dragon action. Same with Jamie and Robb; I agree that I think they will show Jamie's escape attempt just to give him some screen time, and maybe some scenes with Robb and his bannermen discussing war plans.

Overall, I thought the book was fantasitc, right up there with GoT, but there was some "filler" chapters I think.

Arya's storyline was very interesting to me in this book, as well as Tyrion's of course. I also found myself enjoying the Sansa chapters just because we got to see the goings-on at King's Landing, which was always fun.

Bran's chapters where pretty much a dud for me until the end (I never thought that they were hiding in the crypts) and even Jon's were pretty slow in my opinion. When the first book ended with him riding off beyond the wall I thought that this book was going to be action packed for their group, fighting wildings and who knows what else, but that was not the case. Just alot of riding and looking. His storyline should be good in the next book.

And of course, Dany's chapters were just practically unbearable to read. Well, I wouldn't go so far as unbearable, but you know what I mean. I'm glad that GRRM is building up her story slowly though, becuase by the time she reaches Westeros (not sure if this will happen in Book 3 or 4?) her journey will really mean something. I just hope that her story picks up in the next book because it was really boring in this book.

Loved reading about Bronn, the Hound is always interesting, and I was pretty shocked when Renly was killed. I was really looking forward to seeing him fight Stannis. The Battle of Blackwater was incredible, and I loved how he kept you right in the middle of the action for all six chapters and did not wisk you away to Jon or Dany right in the middle of the fight. And reading about Winterfell being burned was extremely hard for me. I love that place. Westeros is definately a huge mess right now and I'm not sure how things are going to turn out.

I'm kinda sad that I'm done with this book, but I'm really looking forward to SoS.

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I'm sure there must have been an infinite number of discussion threads about this, but since I cannot read them while I'm stuck at this point in the books, I have to voice my idea: Could Jaqen be Syrio? That's just wishful thinking

There's been discussion about this (I don't believe it, but some people do.)

Tower of the hand has a section on it that doesn't have any spoilers past ACOK: http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jaqen_hghar.html

I don't think Daenerys had very much to do in this book, certainly not the same amount of character development we saw in the first. In fact I struggle to think how any of her chapters were necessary. They crossed a desert (losing Doreah, no!), stayed in a dead city, went to a rich and populated city, had a trippy experience. Although not much actually happened, I thought the Dany chapters were the most imaginative and visual scenes in the book. The chapter where she goes to see the Undying Ones is fantastic, and I only hope the TV show has a good enough budget and director to do it justice.

Indeed. The Undying Ones also gives us a bit of nice foreshadowing...

I've had some trouble understanding why the Night's Watch fight the wildlings... they are just other human beings, albeit savages. Why are they the enemy? I'm not sure this book made things clearer for me... unless Jon's vision - through Ghost's eyes - is that the wildlings are working WITH the Others and the giants in order to get through the wall. This plot strand finally gets interesting when it sets up Jon as a spy who will infiltrate the wildlings. Maybe in the next book we'll get to see Mance Rayder?

Tiny spoiler (you can deduce it from the text by this point, though it isn't 100% obvious)

It's heavily implied in the book that the Wall was built by magic thousands of years ago to keep out the Others/wights. But after thousands of years without any Others showing up, the purpose of the Wall was forgotten. LC Mormont comments on it in AGOT 'you don't build a wall hundreds of feet tall of ice to keep out other humans.' The Watch became convinced that their purpose was to keep out barbarians to the north, like Hadrian's Wall.

You can also figure out what the relation between the wildlings and the Others (or lack thereof) is by this point, but that's a bit more spoilerish.

TYRION:

A favourite character, and always the most welcome chapters. Watching Tyrion clean house at King's Landing, prepare for invasion, and keep his devious family under control, is definitely the highlight of the book. Technically he is helping to further the reign of Joffrey and the dominance of House Lannister, so he's kind of a baddie... but he's also the most respectable and impressive character in the series. I loved the way he got rid of Janos Slynt, arrested Pycelle (after determining that the poison used to kill Jon Arryn must have come from him), and even poisoned Cersei... not to kill her, just to give her the shits so that she couldn't attend Council meetings! It's also good to have it clarified that Tyrion knows of the incest. But some mysteries remain... did this book explain who hired Bran's assassin, or who owned the knife?

Where does Tyrion find out that the poison to kill Jon Arryn must have came from Pycelle?

Tiny spoiler to your final question

You don't find out who hired Bran's assassin in this book. You find out in a later book...

I don't think the book ends as strongly as AGoT. There we ended with the iconic and meaningful sight of Dany with her dragons, but here the book just seems to run out of pages. The Battle of the Blackwater is clearly the awesome climax to this book -- and by the way, how in the seven hells are HBO going to put THAT on the screen?

GRRM is writing the Blackwater episode himself. Should be exciting :)

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm about halfway through ASoS, but I rather liked reading your thoughts on this book. I have to agree with you about Theon's chapters. I hated reading them, just because he was such a disgusting person (and I'm not necessarily talking about his acts, though those could be just as bad I mean more his personality). I understand WHY he is the way that he is, but I'll never like him for it. All the same... grr, Theon.

Dany's chapters were tedious for me too. For the most part I felt like they were pretty much pointless.

Bran's chapters got good at the end. Interesting. Also, I really like the Reeds, but maybe that's just me. I don't know, his story might be a little weird at times, but all the same I enjoyed them.

Sansa... oh Sansa... I feel like she's grown up so much, and not at all. She still wants to imagine life as a song. Although, at least she's finally gotten over her little Joff dreams.

Arya's chapters I've highly enjoyed reading, though I pity her for the amount she's been going through. (The Jaqen/Syrio thing would be very cool, however with as much as I would hope for it I get a feeling it's not...)

Jon's weren't so bad.

Tyrion's chapters were my absolute favorite to read.

OH, and Davos! I rather liked reading from his perspective especially since he's such a respectable character. He reminds me a lot of Ned.

That's all I've got for now!

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What was up with the sighting of Renly at the battle?

I won't spoil this even though it's basically a non-issue and doesn't do anything for the plot. But it's one of those things that nags you and you keep asking, "Yeah so what WAS up with that?" (kind of like Bran's assassin) and it really speaks to GRRM's one fault in his writing, in my opinion. Because you don't find out the answer to this question for another, oh, 1000 pages? After it actually occurs. And when it is mentioned, it's very offhand, just a comment or two from a character. It's very weird.

But you will find out. If you don't want to wait:

It was Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor to spook Renly's troops that had gone over to Stannis.

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My theory regarding Jaqen is that he is one of the faceless assassins..i think that's what they're called without going back to the book to check.

They have been mentioned a few times in the book and the way Jaqen goes about killing would suggest he is an assassin.

I'm about halfway through book three at the moment and can't seem to read it fast enough.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

I'm so glad I found this board. Like many people, I was inspired to read the books because of the TV show and I have now just finished ACoK. But there is nowhere on the internet to discuss things if you're at a mid point in the series. I'm avoiding spoilers like the plague, but this requires total avoidance of everything related to A Song of Ice and Fire on the internet. I was unfortunately spoiled about some huge things that are going to happen at a wedding angry.gif and I don't want that to happen again. So I'm glad this sub-forum exists.

Totally agree, I'm so pleased to have found this sub-forum too. Like you, started reading after the TV series, now dangerously addicted to the books (halfway through ASoS now) - to the point of skiving off work to read a few more chapters. The alternating perspectives is so compelling - I can't possibly put the book down till I've found out what happens to character X, but by the time I get there I also need to know what happens to all those in the intervening chapters...

Your analysis of ACoK is really good, and this discussion made me think of a couple of points:

Where does Tyrion find out that the poison to kill Jon Arryn must have came from Pycelle?

Like the OP I imagine, I felt this was implied in the scene in Pycelle's chamber where Tyrion steals his 'little gift' for Cersei. It makes sense given the association between maesters and poisons throughout.

IIRC it hasn't been confirmed, however, and I'm still a little confused about Jon Arryn's death. It was always supposed that Cersei had poisoned him originally, but didn't she convince Tyrion that she hadn't (although she had sent her maester to make sure Arryn didn't recover)? I'm tempted to think this is another twist, like Bran's assassin, that will return - perhaps connected to the question of whom Arya overheard in the dragon-skull hall in AGoT?

Dany's chapters were tedious for me too. For the most part I felt like they were pretty much pointless.

I seem to be alone in enjoying Dany's chapters for themselves, as well as for their functional role. They were really atmospheric, providing a welcome contrast to the Westeros scenes, and I loved the glimpses we got of Qarth society.

It was Jon's sections I liked least - after the excitement of going north of the wall, nothing really happens until the very end, and there's only so many descriptions of being cold I can enjoy.

On the topic of Dany - one of the things Martin is great at is making plot manoeuvres seem effortless (and in retrospect inevitable, no matter how surprising they are at the time). There are very few places you can see the gears working as he gets his characters into position.

However, from early in GoT, I did feel like that about how Daenerys obtained the dragon eggs. We have lots of references to how valuable these are, enough to let her live well for the rest of her life - why would Ilyrio give such a valuable wedding gift to a girl who's basically being used as a trade item herself? We are often reminded that he is motivated by greed and self-interest - even if he is committed to helping the Targaryens for his own ends, why not give them directly to Viserys?

I therefore had mixed feelings when Ilyrio's influence reappears at the end of CoK. One of the major issues so far is, how will Daenerys find herself an army? It looks like Ilyrio will be crucial in this, and while I'm glad to have the chance to find out more about him, I hope he's not a mcguffin who just exists to patch some plot holes.

Minor spoiler for beginning of ASoS:

I haven't reached Ilyrio yet, but after Jorah tells Dany his suspicions on the boat, it does look like there's going to be more here to put my doubts to rest

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I was wondering whether Arya would reveal herself to Roose Bolton. After all, he is a Northman who took Harrenhal in the name of Robb. But when you see him with the leeches you get the feeling he's a creepy bastard, and probably best for Arya not to declare her identity. Then of course there is the activity of Roose Bolton's bastard, who seems to be a villain in the story. How connected are Ramsey Snow's actions to his father's?

I was wondering the same thing. Why did Arya not reveal herself as a Stark to Bolton? Is it because of his actions at Herenhall? Several times we are reminded of Syrio's teaching regading "looking" or "seeing". Does this have to do with some instinct on Arya's part not to reveal?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Arya was right not to reveal herself to Roose Bolton, whatever he reasons. I'm not sure he'd saddle up and run her back to Riverrun. He is a cruel, cruel person and she has a front row seat to that. Making a run for it was her best option.

No way is Jaqen Syrio Forel. Jaqen was on some mission. Syrio had agreed to come to Winterfell. Syrio would not have left Arya at Harrenhall.

I have to say the balance of Danaerys' chapters is that hers is an excruciating journey of another kind. She is really walking through the fire to earn her destiny on pretty much every level. When she finally finds respite it reveals fascinating new environments and cultures. Dany's travels remind me of a quote from "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" (Campbell): "The original departure into the land of trials represented only the beginning of the long and really perilous path of initiatory conquests and moments of illumination." Her fever dreams when she lost her baby, and the visions in the Palace of Dust most certainly rate as moments of illumination (and hatching dragons). And pretty much all of her time with the Dothraki, most especially since Drogo's death is that "long and perilous path." Frankly, I'd say much the same is true of Jon Snow beyond the Wall and Bran who is just setting out. Dany's journey is such a trial of faith. She doesn't really believe in any particular religion, but she believes in the strength of her bloodline and she has an instinct about her destiny.

Arya's chapters are my favorites just because I'm pulling for her so desperately. She's at the mercy of circumstances to a great extent but she has really held up. Imagine being highborn and being forced to sleep rough, beating beaten bloody, threatened with rape and all the labor she has never known. For a long while I'd wished that Sansa made it out with her, but Sansa could never have handled this - aside from not being able to masquerade as a boy. They both suffer so much. (It was very funny learning in the appendix that the boy who cried about losing his princess to Arya was the Frey she is supposed to marry. Imagine how that marriage would go.)

The battle chapter was amazing! It was intense, surprising, terrifying. Amazing writing and plotting. Also, Renly's death. In fact, I have to give props to Martin. From the beginning I've found the mentions of the "shadowbinders of Asshai" very intriguing. Then he slips up and shows us what a shadowbinder does and it's so shocking that we're reeling from the event and only think later - 'wait! that's what a shadowbinder does?!' hats off, sir.

i wonder what becomes of tyrion now that his father has come to town. he is still his father's heir since jamie is kingsguard (unless they rewrite the rules and let jamie quit his vow). Actually, Catelyn was calling for a sword last we saw Jamie so who knows? A number of characters are not confirmed live or dead: stannis, davos, theon. We can't know about Syrio because the only people who would recognize him if his head was on a spike...are also on spikes. Sansa never met him and no one outside House Stark knew him besides Meryn Trant who was the last person to see him.

Oh! That bit about Renly at the Blackwater... obviously that was Loras in Renly's armor. We hear how awesome Loras fights several times, but we never heard that about Renly despite his build.

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  • 1 month later...

I am actually done with SoS part 1 already (started part 2 today) but this is something that came to my mind shortly after finishing CoK.

I read the "So spake Martin" section of Westeros. More exactly the posts, that are older than SoS release date. And there has been this question from one of fans to GRRM if we are after the second book able to find out who killed Bran and GRRM replies something likes he is not sure, but probably yes, the clues are deffinitely there.

So I was thinking about it a bit and these are the clues I managed to gather (after first reading I might have forgot something important):

1. Littlefinger suggests the dagger was his, and he lost it to Tyrion when Loras unhorsed Jaime

2. We know the dagger actually changed hands during the tourney from Jaime.

3. We also know, that Robert showed the dagger to Jaime to salt his wounds.

4. We know from Tyrion's POV that he did not do it.

5. Jaime denies he did it when Catelyn comes to question him to his cell. Also he denies Cersei is involved, as far as he knows.

So what did I figure out of this?

Despite the rivalry Lannister-Stark, the only two people who have motive are Jaime and Cersei and I guess they are innocent. I believe this not only because Jaime has his moment of honesty down in the cell with Catelyn, but Cersei also denied any part in the murder to Tyrion in King's Landing as far as I recall. Not only are they innocent, but they have no clue about it, at least Jaime.

Tyrion has no clue also, as far as I can tell from his POV.

Littlefinger could play some part, because he knows the dagger, and lies about what he knows about it. BUT he lacks motive, and also why would he confess he is related to it, if he took part in the assassination?

Robert has the blade in his hand at least once, when he comes to Jaime to humiliate him. It could be that he won it during tourney, borrowed from someone, or "borrowed without permission". With the last being unlikely.

Let's assume the whole process of borrowing the damned thing would be too much trouble for Robert (as a simple man) to care about it, so he won the dagger at the tourney.

It would not surprise me if he caried the thing with him to Winterfell. Such a pretty blade as it is.

Then it would be possibly reachable by pretty much anyone in Winterfell during the visit, because of how crowded and disorderly it must have been there. And even more reachable during their journey (either there or back). Particularly by members of royal family.

It may be by the rivalry I already mentioned, or that I got used to the idea that Lannister did it, either Cersei or Jaime, but I went through their family as first suspects. Robert - clearly no. Cersei and Jaime - no, reasons I already wrote. Tommen or Myrcella - clearly no, too young and with other (rather childish) things on their minds. But there remains one Lannister that is left aside the whole time.

Joffrey not only proved himself throughout the series as an utter idiot, and sick cunt from the very beginning, but also a Stark hater, bloodshed lover, and admirer of "kingly behavior". Which pretty much means violence and murder in his interpretation. We can see the strongly negative relation to Starks for no apparent reason (Cersei's upbringing probably) as soon as the swordfight training at Winterfell. Then there was the scene when Tyrion sent him with some slaps to Starks to say how he is sorry about Bran, that all in public and in Hound's sight. That could be a sting up his prince ass also. And then, he proved at the end of GoK, that his notion of mercy is a clean death (Ned Stark).

So could it be Joffrey who sent the assassin? No mature reason behind that, but he is not mature at all. And after first 3 books it comes to me just as a thing that Joffrey could come up with, when bored at a foreign uninteresting court.

The only thing that remains unexplained is Littlefinger's behavior about the dagger during his meeting with Catelyn.

If the dagger was truly his, and he lent it to Robert, why not say so? If it never belonged to him, but to Robert, again, why does not he say so?

It could be for various reasons. Maybe he thinks, that Cat would dismiss his whole story as an utter nonsense, or come to Robert asking about it, which would lead nowhere. But why would he want it to lead anywhere? Could be he still loves her, and wants to help, but then how would the story with Tyrion help any better than what he really knows? (and that can be anything)

It is all too complicated about Littlefinger and only simple reason he could have to mislead Cat about the dagger was that he felt some anger towards Tyrion for whatever reason. OR he wanted to get the lion and the wolf at each other's throat, again for whatever reason.

Some thoughts from others more or less the same way into the story?

really unimportant SoS part 1 spoiler:

I believe we know from Jaime's POVs that he really has no knowledge of the assassination attempt. Or do we not? (not sure now, but I believe he does not)

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Given Littlefinger’s personal history with the Tullys and the Starks, I still have him pegged as the mostly likely suspect in the attempted murder of Bran, directly or indirectly. One of GRRM’s major themes is how even for the most complex characters, base human desires can set cataclysmic events in motion- and why not a humiliated, unrequited would-be lover’s desire for revenge? How better to get back at the Starks than to set them against the richest and most ruthless House in the land? It’s only circumstantial at this point, but it has a stink to it.

OP

Agree on most points- this is going to be a tougher assignment for the tv adaptation, but not impossible. Between the battle of Blackwater, Renly & Stannis’ confrontation, Arya’s travails on the road and at Harrenhal (assassinations, takeover, introduction to Roose Bolton, escape), Dipshit Greyjoy’s bumbling treachery, Tyrion’s machinations and the crossover perspective of Sansa (which I actually enjoyed, more below), I think there should be enough to pack 10 episodes with sufficient action and intrigue. I suspect the season will only be punctuated by highlights from Dany and Jon’s storyline, just enough to keep them simmering but not featuring heavily. Fingers crossed.

Other thoughts:

Arya

Probably in the minority, but I am a bit saddened by Arya’s character trajectory. Her fighting nature is part of what makes her so engaging, yet she is responding to traumatic events by becoming a child soldier with a perfunctory, unquestioning attitude to death. A product of her environment no doubt- beheadings, murders and a tour of the badlands with The Mountain and his Merrie Men will do that- but her assassination of the guard in the end while necessary, was chilling in it’s calculated nature. She is still a favourite and I would sooner have her plotline than Sansa’s, but with a tinge of sadness for the path she appears to be on. On that note…

Sansa:

I went from mentally yelling “WAKE UP TO YOURSELF” to genuine pity. She may have flown willingly into her cage after buying a bunch of noble lies about a bunch of ignoble people- a trait her father shared- but watching her flail senselessly while being tormented was simply painful to witness. She spent a lifetime being schooled and rewarded for behaviours that are only of use in keeping her head off a spike. From a narrative perspective, very little seems to have been expected of her up to now, so it would be nice to think she develops some smarts in future chapters. With a sympathetic Tyrion and a creepy Littlefinger sniffing around her plot line, its possible.

*On a related thought, neither she nor Arya would have lasted 5 minutes had their situations been reversed.

I’m still waiting for Bran to get interesting. After starting with a bang/thud, his plotline still feels like it’s just taking off.

The Boltons seem just CHARMING.

Theon Theon Theon. Beheading is too good for him. Nice to know whats going on inside his head, if only to confirm what a delusional jerkoff he is.

HODOR! (just to be polite)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I didn't know it is such a drag for many people. The Bran and Dany's POV did bore me a bit, yet i enjoyed the ACoK pretty as much as the GoT. There are so many times that I was misled and when I found out I was tricked, I just couldn't help admiring:"Well played, GRRM!" I believe what looked like duds in this book will turn out to be massive explosions later, just have to allow it some time to build up the momentum.

As for putting Winterfell on fire, I feel the plot is mercifully arranged, albeit he misled me into believing Bran and Rickon were dead for so many chapters. Before it happened, the green dreams sort of prepared us for the misfortune to fall upon the whole Winterfell, and in reality the boys luckily escaped the death. Thinking of GRRM's reputation for killing his characters make me even more grateful. "It is not dead,just broken." There are something more dreadfull coming, but this is the spirit we will share with Bran to overcome whatver life /GRRM keeps in store for him/us.

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