[ADWD Spoilers] Jon, Stannis, Melisandre

[Lesionaire]

Many people think Melisandre will revive Jon Snow ... if Jon Snow is actually dead, do you imagine the revival would cost Mel her life? After all, George has a claim to fame to uphold and it's starting to wear thin with so many revivals and fake deaths, so I think there should be some sort of cost for Jon's life.

Also, do you think that Melisandre loves Stannis? It makes some sense; Mel is shown particularly in aDwD to be human and make human mistakes. She also is of the view that there is no gray, only black and white, somewhat like Stannis is. Even though Stannis seems sort of unlovable to most, I think Melisandre may be so dead-set on Stannis being AA because she is actually either in love with him or obsessed with him, and so she fails to read the fires properly because of that.

[JWJ78]

I just don't get the whole Mel Stannis deal- we clearly find out that Mel is pretty much full of crap, everything she does is a scam/sham. Why the whole Stannis is AA dress up. Seems like a lot of work and lying just to get stuck at the Wall- if Jon is AA why not just go to him in the first place?

[Ser Pistus]

I just don't get the whole Mel Stannis deal- we clearly find out that Mel is pretty much full of crap, everything she does is a scam/sham. Why the whole Stannis is AA dress up. Seems like a lot of work and lying just to get stuck at the Wall- if Jon is AA why not just go to him in the first place?

It seems to me that Mel really believes Stannis to be AA. The flaming sword is just a show, of course, it just helps convincing people.

[Steve Moss]

It seems to me that Mel really believes Stannis to be AA. The flaming sword is just a show, of course, it just helps convincing people.

Exactly. Mel is pretty clear that her magic:

1. Is real; but,

2. No where as strong, reliable or wizard-like as a common person might think. No fireballs or lightning bolts, only hazy information and a medieval chemistry set. Which is fine, as knowledge is power. :)

[Saracen]

Mell is NN and Jon is AA. Dan is tPwwp and Tyrion is tlh. :thumbsup:

[Flavius Aetius]

Many people think Melisandre will revive Jon Snow ... if Jon Snow is actually dead, do you imagine the revival would cost Mel her life? After all, George has a claim to fame to uphold and it's starting to wear thin with so many revivals and fake deaths, so I think there should be some sort of cost for Jon's life.

Also, do you think that Melisandre loves Stannis? It makes some sense; Mel is shown particularly in aDwD to be human and make human mistakes. She also is of the view that there is no gray, only black and white, somewhat like Stannis is. Even though Stannis seems sort of unlovable to most, I think Melisandre may be so dead-set on Stannis being AA because she is actually either in love with him or obsessed with him, and so she fails to read the fires properly because of that.

Mel is obviously mistaken and no doubt knows that Stannis is not the chosen one, but she needed to lie to get a foothold in Westeros. Think about it Westeros worships the seven and the only way Mel could bring her new faith to Westeros was to jump on the Stannis rebellion band wagon. The Targaeryan Maester pretty much proved that Stannis' sword was fake... if you all remember in the previous novels it was Lord Beriq Dondarrion I believe that was ressurrected countless times by the red warrior priest and could turn his blade into a flaming inferno with a few drops of blood. I always thought it was clear that Dondarrion is the chosen one. It's just odd that we havent heard much of anything about Dondarrion and his rebels for sometime. As for Jon Snow I did not expect him to be attacked and likely killed by his black brothers. Eventhough the foreshadowing was there twice that I can recount: once by the priestess Mel and the other time by Jon's Direwolf Ghost (His anger and restlessness towards the black brothers). Remember Jon's brother The King in The North's Direwolf also sensed his betrayal by the freys before it happened. Excellent literary devices used by Martin to be sure. I mean what an awesome cliffhanger I can't wait for his next book to find out what happens to Jon. I don't know why but that is the best cliffhanger that i'm interested in eventhough there were many probably because Jon's war to protect all of Westeros has just begun and already he is betrayed and we don't know for sure if he lives or dies. I'm hoping Mel brings him back to life before his body rots.... remember what happened to Caitlin Stark... gives me shivers down my spine.

[Knight of Ashes]

Mel is obviously mistaken and no doubt knows that Stannis is not the chosen one, but she needed to lie to get a foothold in Westeros. Think about it Westeros worships the seven and the only way Mel could bring her new faith to Westeros was to jump on the Stannis rebellion band wagon. The Targaeryan Maester pretty much proved that Stannis' sword was fake... if you all remember in the previous novels it was Lord Beriq Dondarrion I believe that was ressurrected countless times by the red warrior priest and could turn his blade into a flaming inferno with a few drops of blood. I always thought it was clear that Dondarrion is the chosen one. It's just odd that we havent heard much of anything about Dondarrion and his rebels for sometime.

It's rather clear from Mel's pOV chapter that she sincerely believes Stannis to be AA. Also, Dondarrion finally kicked it when he resurrected Cat.

[Apan]

I think that someone will have to die to bring Jon back to life. Maybe Mel, or Maybe Tormund will sacrfice himself. Ghost os also possible becouse of his connection with Jon

[kingkiller]

I think that someone will have to die to bring Jon back to life. Maybe Mel, or Maybe Tormund will sacrfice himself. Ghost os also possible becouse of his connection with Jon

Absolutely... only death can pay for life! I'd be completely dejected if Ghost died though.

All I know is Melisandre's 1st POV chapter in TWOW will be one of the most awaited chapters in asoif ever. If and when Jon does come back, it'll be in her POV and not in a Jon POV that starts "His eyes opened..." or something.

[Zax Snow]

I think we should all except the fact that Jon is not dead. He is my fav character and as much as I want him to have a good ending he can still die. I'm not trying to say he can't die. Far from it. I actually think he will die. But as long as it's a heroic, honorable death I'm fine with it. I think his ending will be "bittersweet". But he's not done yet. Can't be. I don't know if he's AA or PtwP but it's clear he is not dead. The biggest mystery surrounding Jon and pretty much the whole series is his parentage. I don't have my books on me but I think Jon ponders who his mother is in every book. He can not die until he learns the truth of it. If R+L=J he can't be dead. If it doesn't then no one will really care who his parents are if he dies so he has to be alive for that info to be relavent. I don't know if he is AA or rhegar's child but I do know one thing. He is not dead

[Buster52]

I don't get why so many people think of Mel is a sympathetic character. Pretty clear to me she is one of the bad guys because she serves an evil god.

I also think the primary POV at the wall will be neither her nor Jon (who is dead). I think it will likely be Val.

[Flavius Aetius]

I don't get why so many people think of Mel is a sympathetic character. Pretty clear to me she is one of the bad guys because she serves an evil god.

I also think the primary POV at the wall will be neither her nor Jon (who is dead). I think it will likely be Val.

I agree Mel is not a sympathetic character. I'm also having trouble swallowing her red god's pill also. According to the red priests there is only R'hller or however you spell it and the Other. The Other is supposed to be tant amount to Christianity's Satan, yet Mel constantly is giving human sacrifices and encouraging her followers to do the same. She wants to do away with the old gods... The old gods have been helping men and the children of the forest for millennia battling the white walkers. Granted trees can't do much, but they allow the green seers to keep track of everything in the north which would prove very helpful for knowing where the white walkers are and what not. It sure as heck wasn't R'hllor who gave men and children of the forest the knowledge to create magical wards in The Wall to keep the White Walkers out. If R'hllor is the enemy of The Other where the heck has he been while the old gods gave aid against the Other!? However it could just be that the red priests are evil to some extent and give the god a bad name... I remember the red warrior priest never required human sacrifice to bring Dondarrion back to life. By the way the guy who commented on Dondarrion being over with once Caitlin was ressurrected... I don't remember reading anything about that. I remember that each time Dondarrion is ressurected he forgets parts of his life and his grievous wounds remain yet somehow he is sustained. Ressurecting Cat has no effect on Dondarrion whatsoever. At no point do I recall Dondarrion dying for good and so far he is the only one who can produce actual flames from using his blood on his sword. Does anyone know when the next book is due for release? I read Martin only plans on writing 7 novels in this series.

[Flavius Aetius]

nevermind apparently he did give up his life force to bring back Cat.... can't believe i didnt remember that.... But if he is gone and Stannis' sword is a fake... is there even a real sword? The Targaryan Maester pretty much asserted that the sword was not genuine. Speaking of Cat... I remember reading when she and the rebels found out Jon Snow was made Lord Commander of the nights watch she believe he had something to do with the red wedding... like a reward by the Lannisters... What a witch and horrible stepmother to have.

[Demonblade]

Cat was dead by the time that Jon was made Lord Commander.

[Dio Forel]

It's rather clear from Mel's pOV chapter that she sincerely believes Stannis to be AA. Also, Dondarrion finally kicked it when he resurrected Cat.

True but Beric died several times and was clinging to the desire to even go on. I agree though that there is absolute sincerity in Mel. I feel like her gift his very strong just her ability to grasp what she sees is what is lacking.

With that said, she is definitely no fool like some portray her to be. She has managed to accomplish a lot for herself. That glowing red gem on her has been suggesting a lot of power within her. She has a big role to play here.

[elanmorin]

Many people think Melisandre will revive Jon Snow ... if Jon Snow is actually dead, do you imagine the revival would cost Mel her life? After all, George has a claim to fame to uphold and it's starting to wear thin with so many revivals and fake deaths, so I think there should be some sort of cost for Jon's life.

Also, do you think that Melisandre loves Stannis? It makes some sense; Mel is shown particularly in aDwD to be human and make human mistakes. She also is of the view that there is no gray, only black and white, somewhat like Stannis is. Even though Stannis seems sort of unlovable to most, I think Melisandre may be so dead-set on Stannis being AA because she is actually either in love with him or obsessed with him, and so she fails to read the fires properly because of that.

Mel is human, as she herself says, she can interpret visions the wrong way, for example, but she's also something more, as she doesn't need to heat anymore and I think it's hinted she doesn't age the same way normal people do. She's not THAT black and white character either: keeping Mance alive and hiding the fact from Stannis for example proves she's not dead set on upholding laws or obeying her king's wishes, she also cares for Davos' son's health although she consideres his father misguided in his loyalty to Stannis. And no, I don't think she loves Stannis. She has interpreted him to be AA, and AA is the central figure of her religion, the one who will win the war against the Great Other. She has dedicated her whole life to him, BECAUSE she thinks he's AA. In that she's obsessed, but that's also because all her power (and the wall making her even more powerful) has also made her arrogant. In her PoV she doesn't think of Stannis as anything more than a tool to win the war. No love, not even devotion. I like Mel, she's an interesting and complex character and she's definitely caring, but she puts the greater picture above anything else, and she very well knows who the real enemy is.

As for your first question: it is certainly possible Mel might die by bringing back Jon or healing him if he's only near death (she knows he's important, she doesn't interpret the visions showing him when she searches for AA), but I don't think that to be likely. She will be hurt, but the wall increases her power a lot, so I doubt she will die. She may be weakened enough to meke her vulnerable though.

Edit: Also, we don't know what happened before the age of heroes. We don't know whe AA really was, and so much time passed even the Red Priests of Rol'hor just cling to a mythologic history and vague prophecy. More likely than not AA was able to defeat the others through the use of fire (may be linked to Rol'hor) but may also have been aided by others, and the children chiefs among them. No need to get upset because the tenets of a fictional religion claim there's no other god but Rol'hor, the Red Priests powers are pretty rel in ASoIaF but the powers of the children are real too in there. It's just sorcery on both sides most probably, and the Red Priests interpret it to be a sacred power granted from their god, but that doesn0't mean they are right.

[Nightstar]

I don't think she loves Stannis. She has interpreted him to be AA, and AA is the central figure of her religion, the one who will win the war against the Great Other. She has dedicated her whole life to him, BECAUSE she thinks he's AA. In that she's obsessed, but that's also because all her power (and the wall making her even more powerful) has also made her arrogant. In her PoV she doesn't think of Stannis as anything more than a tool to win the war. No love, not even devotion. I like Mel, she's an interesting and complex character and she's definitely caring, but she puts the greater picture above anything else, and she very well knows who the real enemy is.

I agree! Really, does it seem plausible that a woman like Melisandre would love Stannis? He's just a means to an end for her; it's Rh'llor she loves.

As for healing Jon, I suspect he'll be comatose for awhile (long enough for the NW to go under completely). I even think he will die, but only for a few minutes.

Let's face it, he needs to be technically dead to free him from those tiresome vows he took when he was too young to know better, and was deceived by Ned and Benjen.

[Black Crow]

Let's face it, he needs to be technically dead to free him from those tiresome vows he took when he was too young to know better, and was deceived by Ned and Benjen.

Technically perhaps, but haven't Marsh and his mates just stabbed him precisely because he's already chosen to Free himself, repudiated his vows and set up for King of the Free Folk without bothering to die first? :rolleyes:

[Nightstar]

Technically perhaps, but haven't Marsh and his mates just stabbed him precisely because he's already chosen to Free himself, repudiated his vows and set up for King of the Free Folk without bothering to die first? :rolleyes:

I didn't get that at all.

I thought Marsh and Co. stabbed him because he was allowing wildlings in, and planning to feed and shelter them (along with the ones who were stranded).

And where did it say Jon planned to set up as King?

He already knows Mance didn't die in the fire. And wildlings choose their own king.

[Black Crow]

I didn't get that at all.

I thought Marsh and Co. stabbed him because he was allowing wildlings in, and planning to feed and shelter them (along with the ones who were stranded).

And where did it say Jon planned to set up as King?

He already knows Mance didn't die in the fire. And wildlings choose their own king.

This thread started by Ran and last discussed August 3:

Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:41 AM

So, we meet Gerrick Kingsblood, who claims descent from Redbeard, who so far as we know was the last King beyond the Wall before Mance. Of course, Tormund tells us that in fact he's descended from Redbeard's younger brother, called the Red Raven (because you need a word to rhyme with craven), and in any case the wildlings don't really give a damn who you're descended from, not when it comes to the idea of being a King beyond the Wall. Naturally, Selyse and co. do care, and they recognize Gerrick as the king. Silly them.

This post isn't about Gerrick.

In Jon's last chapter, we have these passages:

Quote

"No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.

The Shieldhall went mad.

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund.

And:

Quote

"The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless . . ." Jon paused. ". . . is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

My first read, I just accepted all that without thinking about it much, rushing along to see what would happen next. On my re-read, though, when I really allowed myself to savor it... I went, "Wait a minute. Why the hell do the wildlings care so much? Ramsay's letter doesn't really threaten the wildlings directly, although it's true he mentions Mance (which none of them know what to make of -- Jon doesn't even tell Tormund the truth) and his son and Val."

Some have put this down to loyalty to Mance, but I don't think that's it -- most would, on first blush, think it was a lie and believe Mance is dead.

But what about if it's specifically about Jon Snow?

Consider that these wildlings were looking at an extinction-level event, trapped beyond the Wall, the cold creeping in, the Others after them. And then this crow comes along, a crow that cut down Qhorin Halfhand and rode with Mance and Tormund for a time (and betrayed them, yes, but a man has to do what he has to do), and tells them he'll trust their oaths and he'll trust them south of the Wall. He shows them respect, he honors their chiefs with castles, he trusts them (as much as a man should, but not beyond that).

When we look at what the wildlings swear as they come by, we have Soren Shieldbreaker saying "My axe is yours, Jon Snow, if ever you have need of such," and Morna White Mask says she's Jon's man or woman, whichever he prefers. They're swearing themselves to Jon in a way that probably reflects the oaths they had sworn to Mance as king. They're not kneelers, but they value a word highly, so the wildlings being something of an oath-based society makes sense.

And this fact led me to think.. you know, are they treating Jon Snow as their king now, more or less?

So I had this looney idea that when Jon comes back -- and yes, I believe he'll come back -- the Night's Watch will reject him, but as far as the wildlings are concerned, he's even more of a badass than they thought, and yeah, he may as well be their king.

Of course, it's a looney idea. If Jon comes back, there'll be a cost. There's always a cost, and it needs to be real. I think he'll be rejected at all sides, wildlings and Night's Watch alike, and I suspect he may end up being an outcast who'll end up playing the part of the Last Hero, striking out north into the Heart of Winter to try and do something desperate and maybe redeeming, maybe guided by Bloodraven and Bran..."

Thus spake Ran. (not Black Crow - who nevertheless agrees with him)