79 replies to this topic

[Slychd]

In AFFC we get our first POV's of Queen Cersei.  Was anyone disappointed?  I expected some master of strategy, not a borderline psychotic. Not that I don't think the story is brilliant, but all of the things she had been accused of were perpetrated by others.  She didn't kill Jon Arryn, she didn't hire the assassin to kill Bran, all she did was cause Robert's death early, which I think it might have ended up to better server her had he lived.

[cripples and broken things]

I am a new book fan that just start AFFC. I am disappointed a little. I want to say we can blame Joffrey's death for driving Cersei totally off her nut, but the decisions she is making during Tommen's reign is just DUMB. She makes it so obvious to the Tyrels that she doesn't like them it's barely veiled. (Stupid, b/c she needs them to at least think she's harmless if she actually wants to undermine them.)Maybe it was because we were in her head that is seemed so obvious. But she wouldn't have fooled me and Margeary is certainly not fooled. She blatantly insulted one of the best knights in the realm, Loras. It's like she's trying to make Tommen hate her in this book. Threatening his queen in front of him was stupid. I guess because she sees him as so insignificant compared to Joffrey, she doesn't care. Which is also just insane. Because he's very significant. He'll sit on that throne one day no matter what. (If Danny doesn't ride in and roast them all first.) She alienated her uncle and Jaime which is insanity b/c she needs to have the other Lannisters on her side and rejects perfectly good advice. It's like she wants to become Robert 2.0, only she's just quickly descending down the same path of being an awful, drunken ruler. The only difference is that Robert did less harm by actually stepping aside and letting other people ruling for him. lol I was expecting a lot more cunning, lot more calculating personality.

[Jamie Lannister]

She was my favourite character in the book, heh. Her decisions and plots were great fun to follow, and seeing the world through this super-bitch-queen's eyes was very refreshing. I agree that some of her formidability was robbed of her when it turns out that she didn't depose Arryn and didn't even arrange Bran's assassination, but I found it to be to her credit in the end. She fancies herself as this highly venerated figure, with a short period of rule that she feels she deserves ahead of her before passing the torch to Tommen. Yet, despite her constant arrogance and scheming, she was on the road to failure. She burns her own bridges with pretty much all of the people she needs the most. I thoroughly enjoyed witnessing Cersei crash and burn, and her desperate little letter to Jaime at the end (and his reaction to it) was the perfect cliffhanger.

Despite her shortcomings, she did come across as rather cunning to me. She keeps the more susceptible men in line with promises of her thighs apart; her love for her children and unpardonable whitewashing of Joffrey was a nice counter to that. She tried to make the right moves, though ultimately only succeeded in making House Lannister even more enemies at almost every turn. Even the one person she thought she could always count on (or more likely, twist around her finger) abandoned her, and I daresay rightfully so.

All-in-all, I love Cersei. I found her a very dynamic character, and I'm genuinely curious to see what becomes of her current predicament.

Edited by Zaelsino, 24 July 2011 - 01:40 PM.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Slychd, on 18 July 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

In AFFC we get our first POV's of Queen Cersei.  Was anyone disappointed?  I expected some master of strategy, not a borderline psychotic. Not that I don't think the story is brilliant, but all of the things she had been accused of were perpetrated by others.  She didn't kill Jon Arryn, she didn't hire the assassin to kill Bran, all she did was cause Robert's death early, which I think it might have ended up to better server her had he lived.

Not surprised. Tyrion ran rings around her in CoK. Had she been truly cunning she would have studied at the feet of her father and younger brother. She got by on looks and it shows.

[eyeheartsansa]

Manhole Eunuchsbane, on 24 July 2011 - 04:39 PM, said:

Not surprised. Tyrion ran rings around her in CoK. Had she been truly cunning she would have studied at the feet of her father and younger brother. She got by on looks and it shows.

I agree completely.

I knew she was going to be trouble from the time she had Lady put down.  Cersei's chapters were definitely the most entertaining part of 'Feast' for me.  The level of contempt she holds for everyone around her is astonishing, and wickedly entertaining!

Do you think she was so unhinged all along, or did the loss of Joff and Tywin in such a short period of time send her over the edge?

[70gandalf]

eyeheartsansa, on 24 July 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

I agree completely.

I knew she was going to be trouble from the time she had Lady put down.  Cersei's chapters were definitely the most entertaining part of 'Feast' for me.  The level of contempt she holds for everyone around her is astonishing, and wickedly entertaining!

Do you think she was so unhinged all along, or did the loss of Joff and Tywin in such a short period of time send her over the edge?

I think she was unhinged all along.  Who in their right mind thinks having a sexual relationship with their brother is a good idea.  In my opinion she unraveled quicker than she would have had Joff and Tywin had still been alive.

[Forseti]

Her limitations were already quite clear in earlier books. AFfC showing her perspective just hammers home the fact how incredibly out of her depth she is. It was kind of fun to finally get a good sense of her pettiness.

[lezboyd]

I totally agree with the viewpoints here. Tyrion was doing so much all around her in Book 2, including taking Tommen hostage, and she was unable to do a single thing about it. Tyrion pretty much ruled. All the thing that went south for Tyrion in Book 3 was more of Tywin's doing then Cersai's. Her chapters in this book gave an insight into her narcissism and her anti-social nature, and her stupidity.

IMO, Tyrion was wary of her only because he knew of her narcissism and her tendency to back-stab (or poison) people when they let their guards down.

Edited by lezboyd, 03 August 2011 - 02:05 PM.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

To be honest I find her chapters to be almost completely absurd to the point of frustration. That she is entirely unsympathetic is a bit disappointing as even Jaime was somewhat sympathetic in ASOS (even if I still don't like him) but that in itself isn't damning as Martin is simply repeating what he did with Theon's chapters and giving us a mostly unsympathetic POV. Not at all uncommon. Nor do I find her ineptitude to be particularly problematic as it again is pretty much an echo of Theon's bungling in ACOK and their POV's end in similar fashion.

What I find frustrating is that her motivations are all over the place, as you can have a person do bad things but at least have them do bad things for significant reasons. Martin again falls on the tired prophecy motif to try and help explain why Cersei is such a monster which is not only overused but such a BAD plot crutch, and worst of all it is completely unnecessary. Did we really need an explanation for what drove Cersei to hate Tyrion, wasn't the fact that she was a facile self-centered sociopath reason enough? Couple that with what she no doubt heard from Tywin about how he killed there mother and you have all the motivation a psychopath needs I would think.

The same goes for her hatred of Margery Tyrell. Does this really need a supernatural explanation? She is younger and prettier than Cersei and the lioness resents being beholden to High Garden. Again more than understandable and not really need of much explanation, let alone a bad explanation that makes use of an already overused plot device. As it stands her chapters are still a story of how her vanity brought down her rule in a few mere months.

Edited by Michael Stephen Bell Jr., 04 August 2011 - 09:21 AM.

[lezboyd]

Michael Stephen Bell Jr., on 04 August 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

...the tired prophecy motif to try and help explain why Cersei is such a monster ... is completely unnecessary.

Totally agree with you about the prophecy part. It wasn't necessary at all.

[Awesam]

How are we sure that the young queen in the prophecy is Margery? And Not Danny?

[Bronn is God]

Awesam, on 05 August 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

How are we sure that the young queen in the prophecy is Margery? And Not Danny?

Cersei certainly thinks its Marg, but Dany is the most overpowered little whore in the universe, so it is most likely her.

[ryneanders]

i dissagree that cersei's chapters are repeat of theon's. theon is clearly haunted by the things he is doing for power; the nightmares are good example of this. cersei however seems to feel that everything she does is justified and that she is the one being cheated. a true sociopath.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

ryneanders, on 05 August 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

i dissagree that cersei's chapters are repeat of theon's. theon is clearly haunted by the things he is doing for power; the nightmares are good example of this. cersei however seems to feel that everything she does is justified and that she is the one being cheated. a true sociopath.

I don't mean to imply that they are a repeat of Theon's chapters, more like they echo Theon's chapters in significant ways. Obviously they are very different characters, but they have certain similarities as well. They are both relatively unsympathetic characters (I find them to be so anyway, but your mileage may vary) who feel they are much smarter and in control than they actually are. Also they both are seemingly undone by their own machinations. Need I say more?

[eschism]

Michael Stephen Bell Jr., on 04 August 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

The same goes for her hatred of Margery Tyrell. Does this really need a supernatural explanation? She is younger and prettier than Cersei and the lioness resents being beholden to High Garden. Again more than understandable and not really need of much explanation, let alone a bad explanation that makes use of an already overused plot device. As it stands her chapters are still a story of how her vanity brought down her rule in a few mere months.

I did not feel her behavior was generated from a jealousy of Margery's youth and beauty, but for more Lysa-like reasons. It could have been an ugly Frey wife for Tommen and Cersei would still have hated her. At this point, Cersei has lost everyone in her life except for Tommen, and she wants sole control over what happens to him, just like Lyssa did over her little milk-addict.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

eschism, on 06 August 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

I did not feel her behavior was generated from a jealousy of Margery's youth and beauty, but for more Lysa-like reasons. It could have been an ugly Frey wife for Tommen and Cersei would still have hated her. At this point, Cersei has lost everyone in her life except for Tommen, and she wants sole control over what happens to him, just like Lyssa did over her little milk-addict.

No, her issues with Margery weren't generated by jealousy of Margery's youth and beauty (though she mentions those night constantly) but rather sadly from another annoying use of the prophecy plot device. It would have been far better if her insanity were grounded in the real world (yes, it is a fantasy series , but still) but Martin felt she needed a really solid reason to behave insanely besides just being insane. Alas....

[Tammy]

Slychd, on 18 July 2011 - 02:07 AM, said:

In AFFC we get our first POV's of Queen Cersei.  Was anyone disappointed?  I expected some master of strategy, not a borderline psychotic. Not that I don't think the story is brilliant, but all of the things she had been accused of were perpetrated by others.  She didn't kill Jon Arryn, she didn't hire the assassin to kill Bran, all she did was cause Robert's death early, which I think it might have ended up to better server her had he lived.

I've only read a couple Cersei chapters so far, but I'm a little surprised now being in her head though I guess I shouldn't due to things that were said in previous books.  I knew she loved Joffrey and maybe she's idealizing him a little now that he's dead, but I couldn't believe how blind she was to his faults.  The way she thinks about him, you'd think he was a perfect little boy.  I knew that she'd be a bit emotionally driven, but I thought we'd see a cooler head that was conniving and practical.  Instead she's fairly unhinged and blinded by suspicion and hatred.

[Lucreel]

Does it strike anyone else that Cersei is not nearly so clever as she thinks she is? I've not finished the book yet, but it seems like in her mind, she's this great cunning schemer and ruler, when in reality, she appears to not be making many particularly strong moves.

I mean, she was constantly fighting Tyrion, who was the best Hand she's had, and accused him with no proof. I still don't understand her pathological hatred and distrust of Tyrion.

She seeks to discredit Margaery by having one of the Kettleblacks try to seduce the girl - but I think Margaery is both too clever and too honorable to fall for that. Kettleblack complained that she was always surrounded by other people and never had opportunity to be seduced - I believe that to be quite intentional on her part - I think her mother and grandmother (and possibly father too) taught her early and often to do that so that none could ever raise false accusations against her, and so she could never be tempted.

In short, Cersei's whole clever scheme depended *entirely* on the chance that someone else might do what she wanted, and in this case, the fish won't take the worm. In the meantime, she is losing time to send Kettleblack up to the Wall (thankfully) to dispatch Jon Snow. She though to kill two birds with one stone, but missed completely.

A little past 1/2 way through the book, there's a chapter where she goes to visit the High Septon.

The Septon convinces her to have Tommen repeal a 200 year old law which disallowed the Faith to have any armed soldiers. She gleefully agrees to allow the re-formation / re-arming of the two militant orders of the Faith.

I don't know for sure what the full repercussions of that will be, but the first thing that occured to me is that A New Piece Has Entered The Game - the High Septon. She's just allowed him to form what very well might become the largest army in Westeros. I'm pretty sure that before too long, those two orders will be fighting against House Lannister. . .the Septon seemed far too eager to forgive the 900,000 dragon debt the crown owed the Faith. He has plans, that one.

Edited by Lucreel, 11 August 2011 - 04:09 PM.

[Tammy]

Lucreel, on 11 August 2011 - 03:56 PM, said:

Does it strike anyone else that Cersei is not nearly so clever as she thinks she is? I've not finished the book yet, but it seems like in her mind, she's this great cunning schemer and ruler, when in reality, she appears to not be making many particularly strong moves.

I mean, she was constantly fighting Tyrion, who was the best Hand she's had, and accused him with no proof. I still don't understand her pathological hatred and distrust of Tyrion.

She seeks to discredit Margaery by having one of the Kettleblacks try to seduce the girl - but I think Margaery is both too clever and too honorable to fall for that. Kettleblack complained that she was always surrounded by other people and never had opportunity to be seduced - I believe that to be quite intentional on her part - I think her mother and grandmother (and possibly father too) taught her early and often to do that so that none could ever raise false accusations against her, and so she could never be tempted.

In short, Cersei's whole clever scheme depended *entirely* on the chance that someone else might do what she wanted, and in this case, the fish won't take the worm. In the meantime, she is losing time to send Kettleblack up to the Wall (thankfully) to dispatch Jon Snow. She though to kill two birds with one stone, but missed completely.

A little past 1/2 way through the book, there's a chapter where she goes to visit the High Septon.

The Septon convinces her to have Tommen repeal a 200 year old law which disallowed the Faith to have any armed soldiers. She gleefully agrees to allow the re-formation / re-arming of the two militant orders of the Faith.

I don't know for sure what the full repercussions of that will be, but the first thing that occured to me is that A New Piece Has Entered The Game - the High Septon. She's just allowed him to form what very well might become the largest army in Westeros. I'm pretty sure that before too long, those two orders will be fighting against House Lannister. . .the Septon seemed far too eager to forgive the 900,000 dragon debt the crown owed the Faith. He has plans, that one.

I agree.  I was very surprised at the unraveling of Cersei.  I wonder why she seemed like she had such a cooler head in the previous books than this one.  Was Joffrey's murder what caused her to come completely unhinged?  She disregards every single piece of good advice people, whom she should trust, give her and opts for her deranged sense of reality.  Doesn't she think at one point that she is a great queen?

I think you're right that there will be some serious repercussions for most, if not all, of her actions.  Allowing the the faith to become an army will be one of her biggest mistakes, I think, as evidenced by most everyone who hears about it thinks about how bad a move it was and how hard it was for the previous rulers to take that right away from them.

[grandmazter3]

Just finished the chapter where she meets with her council for the first time, she is an idiot. I used to think Cersei as cunning as Tyrion but every move that she made in this chapter has potential to bite her back ten fold.

Everything is peaches and cream in Kings Landing right now, I can't wait for the blow back.