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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Tyrion 2 - Spoilers for ADWD


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#141 Spooky Scary Jurble

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 02:27 PM

How's this for a mind-blowing theory: Young Griff is Connington's son!

#142 ogbebaba

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:11 PM

How's this for a mind-blowing theory: Young Griff is Connington's son!


that's just crazy it's almost as crazy as this crackpot theory about Sandor and Gregor

#143 Crow's Eye

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:25 PM

...(this to me gets into the "Promise Me, Ned" territory. So nowhere does it mention The Sword died, perhaps Reed just incapacitates him, and Lyanna's request is for Ned to spare the child and let Dayne flee with him. If this is the case then Jon=N+A. Then again, maybe Ned and Arthur (in disuise) went to Starfall, but Ashara already killed herself but left Ned's child. Ned switched R+L with N+A, and gave him to Dayne to take into exile, so Griff believes that Young Griif is R+L, but is really N+A, while Jon is really R+L and the real dragon head.
More later, have to go, have fun over this theory


I guess I had never really thought about it this way before, but that is an interesting interpretation of R+L=J. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but....

What if Rhaegar's plan was always to have someone whisk R+L away to the free cities to be raised by Connington (who is clearly Griff), in the event Rhaegar was killed or his family otherwise deposed? If Rhaegar thought his offspring to be so important (PwwP and all that), surely he would have a contingency plan in place if all went bad at the Trident, right? Actually, it could have even been Connington himself that was to take the child from the ToJ, because he never made it over to the free cities, but was stowing away far to the south on Rhaegar's orders. The Kingsguard was set to do just that (or at least keep R=L safe until such time as he could be sent/taken to the Free Cities) when the confrontation happened. Ned and Howland Reed win out.

Ned learns of the plan, and understands that his nephew must be kept safe - not only from Robert, but from all the other people who knew of Rhaegar's plan, who would undoubtedly make attempts to kidnap the boy and/or eventually proclaim him king and reveal his Targaryen ancestry. After all, if Ned just leaves the ToJ with a kid in tow, it won't take much effort to figure out where it came from. But Connington is waiting for a child, and the failure to deliver a child will just raise questions because everyone at the Tower of Joy has seen or knows R+L was born.

While the residents/occupants of the ToJ knew of R+L's birth, not all of them would necessarily have close contact with the child (save for someone like, say, Wylla) and would not necessarily know whether it had Targaryen features. Daynes have Targaryen-like features, including the violet eyes. Knowing that the deception would have to last a lifetime, a Dayne would be a great substitute, so why would Connington ever be suspicious? So "Promise Me, Ned" was not only Ned's oath to raise R+L (Jon) as his own, but also to kidnap Ashara's child* and send him across the Narrow Sea to Connington to complete the deception.

Ashara's suicide (whether due to the death of the SotM or because Ned rejected her) always seemed a bit overdramatic to me, but a suicide over the loss of a child is a much better explanation of her death. Ned does the deed, meets her at the top of the tower to confess, Ashara throws herself from the window in grief and dismay, and the rumors spread that it was because she loved Ned and he finally rejected her right before she killed herself (i.e., the fact that they were together ties him to her suicide in the "stories" later told, and "it must have been for love" gives a good reason to connect her death and Ned). Ned claims to have knocked someone up (Wylla) and claims that R+L is the result of that "dishonor." So Ned's grief when recalling "Promise Me" is not just about deceiving Catelyn and sacrificing his honor in the eyes of the realm, but actually kidnapping the child of a woman he loved, and watching her kill herself as a result. (and now note the nice parallels with Jon's actions with Gilly's and Mance's sons)

So now Connington, believing he has the true R+L (i.e., Young Griff), is on his way to Dany. Young Griff is a Dayne (a bastard anyway) and Ashara's son, and thus the mummer's dragon. He will eventually be exposed as such, and people (i.e., Connington) will start to make the connections and figure out what really happened.



*I can't recall whether in the books anyone thought thought Ashara might be pregnant around that time, but there are enough N+A theories around. Admittedly a hole in my wild speculation.

Edited by Crow's Eye, 02 November 2010 - 12:29 PM.


#144 Tanatie Snow

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Posted 19 March 2011 - 05:55 PM

I'm pretty sure this means nothing and it probably can't even be taken as canon, but it is kinda new, and the name is a weird coincidence, so I thought it was worth mentioning it...in the second Maester's path we had to listen at various tables at the Inn and one of the conversations includes a man/boy called Griff:


Seems to me we’ve got a simple choice to make. Stay in the dirt and become turnip farmers or take the black and become men of the Night’s Watch.
It’s a long walk to the Wall…
With who knows what between there and here… Besides, these days the only ones drawing in up are rapers and cut-throats. who would rather keep their all parts and take their chances up in the north!
Do you both have your mother’s aprons strings tied to you still?
My mother’s dead, you know that!
You know what I mean!
What about once we get there, what about those who live past the wall?
My dad says they aren’t human… At least not anymore…
That’s what I think of stories. Superstitious nonsense, there’s nought but wild men beyond the wall. You put black iron into their bellies, they bleed just like everybody else!
Since when have you put black iron into anything? And putting a pitch fork into a manure pile don’t count…
And that right there is the problem! You both can’t put your minds past the present! The farms we grew up on ain’t the only thing for us, We could do more!
My dad needs me! He can’t tend to the fields and stock by himself!
Then a farmer you will always be. How about you
Griff? Come with me north, to the Wall…
I’ll think on it…


#145 Nine of Spades

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:10 PM

I guess I had never really thought about it this way before, but that is an interesting interpretation of R+L=J. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but....

What if Rhaegar's plan was always to have someone whisk R+L away to the free cities to be raised by Connington (who is clearly Griff), in the event Rhaegar was killed or his family otherwise deposed? If Rhaegar thought his offspring to be so important (PwwP and all that), surely he would have a contingency plan in place if all went bad at the Trident, right? Actually, it could have even been Connington himself that was to take the child from the ToJ, because he never made it over to the free cities, but was stowing away far to the south on Rhaegar's orders. The Kingsguard was set to do just that (or at least keep R=L safe until such time as he could be sent/taken to the Free Cities) when the confrontation happened. Ned and Howland Reed win out.

Ned learns of the plan, and understands that his nephew must be kept safe - not only from Robert, but from all the other people who knew of Rhaegar's plan, who would undoubtedly make attempts to kidnap the boy and/or eventually proclaim him king and reveal his Targaryen ancestry. After all, if Ned just leaves the ToJ with a kid in tow, it won't take much effort to figure out where it came from. But Connington is waiting for a child, and the failure to deliver a child will just raise questions because everyone at the Tower of Joy has seen or knows R+L was born.

While the residents/occupants of the ToJ knew of R+L's birth, not all of them would necessarily have close contact with the child (save for someone like, say, Wylla) and would not necessarily know whether it had Targaryen features. Daynes have Targaryen-like features, including the violet eyes. Knowing that the deception would have to last a lifetime, a Dayne would be a great substitute, so why would Connington ever be suspicious? So "Promise Me, Ned" was not only Ned's oath to raise R+L (Jon) as his own, but also to kidnap Ashara's child* and send him across the Narrow Sea to Connington to complete the deception.

Ashara's suicide (whether due to the death of the SotM or because Ned rejected her) always seemed a bit overdramatic to me, but a suicide over the loss of a child is a much better explanation of her death. Ned does the deed, meets her at the top of the tower to confess, Ashara throws herself from the window in grief and dismay, and the rumors spread that it was because she loved Ned and he finally rejected her right before she killed herself (i.e., the fact that they were together ties him to her suicide in the "stories" later told, and "it must have been for love" gives a good reason to connect her death and Ned). Ned claims to have knocked someone up (Wylla) and claims that R+L is the result of that "dishonor." So Ned's grief when recalling "Promise Me" is not just about deceiving Catelyn and sacrificing his honor in the eyes of the realm, but actually kidnapping the child of a woman he loved, and watching her kill herself as a result. (and now note the nice parallels with Jon's actions with Gilly's and Mance's sons)

So now Connington, believing he has the true R+L (i.e., Young Griff), is on his way to Dany. Young Griff is a Dayne (a bastard anyway) and Ashara's son, and thus the mummer's dragon. He will eventually be exposed as such, and people (i.e., Connington) will start to make the connections and figure out what really happened.



*I can't recall whether in the books anyone thought thought Ashara might be pregnant around that time, but there are enough N+A theories around. Admittedly a hole in my wild speculation.


That's the type of plan I could see Tyrion, Littlefinger or Tywin coming up with. But Ned and Lyanna Stark???

I don't see that.

#146 Whatever

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 07:37 PM

Maybe Lyanna /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':D' />

#147 Garlan the Gallant

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 03:31 PM

I guess I had never really thought about it this way before, but that is an interesting interpretation of R+L=J. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but....

What if Rhaegar's plan was always to have someone whisk R+L away to the free cities to be raised by Connington (who is clearly Griff), in the event Rhaegar was killed or his family otherwise deposed? If Rhaegar thought his offspring to be so important (PwwP and all that), surely he would have a contingency plan in place if all went bad at the Trident, right? Actually, it could have even been Connington himself that was to take the child from the ToJ, because he never made it over to the free cities, but was stowing away far to the south on Rhaegar's orders. The Kingsguard was set to do just that (or at least keep R=L safe until such time as he could be sent/taken to the Free Cities) when the confrontation happened. Ned and Howland Reed win out.

Ned learns of the plan, and understands that his nephew must be kept safe - not only from Robert, but from all the other people who knew of Rhaegar's plan, who would undoubtedly make attempts to kidnap the boy and/or eventually proclaim him king and reveal his Targaryen ancestry. After all, if Ned just leaves the ToJ with a kid in tow, it won't take much effort to figure out where it came from. But Connington is waiting for a child, and the failure to deliver a child will just raise questions because everyone at the Tower of Joy has seen or knows R+L was born.

While the residents/occupants of the ToJ knew of R+L's birth, not all of them would necessarily have close contact with the child (save for someone like, say, Wylla) and would not necessarily know whether it had Targaryen features. Daynes have Targaryen-like features, including the violet eyes. Knowing that the deception would have to last a lifetime, a Dayne would be a great substitute, so why would Connington ever be suspicious? So "Promise Me, Ned" was not only Ned's oath to raise R+L (Jon) as his own, but also to kidnap Ashara's child* and send him across the Narrow Sea to Connington to complete the deception.

Ashara's suicide (whether due to the death of the SotM or because Ned rejected her) always seemed a bit overdramatic to me, but a suicide over the loss of a child is a much better explanation of her death. Ned does the deed, meets her at the top of the tower to confess, Ashara throws herself from the window in grief and dismay, and the rumors spread that it was because she loved Ned and he finally rejected her right before she killed herself (i.e., the fact that they were together ties him to her suicide in the "stories" later told, and "it must have been for love" gives a good reason to connect her death and Ned). Ned claims to have knocked someone up (Wylla) and claims that R+L is the result of that "dishonor." So Ned's grief when recalling "Promise Me" is not just about deceiving Catelyn and sacrificing his honor in the eyes of the realm, but actually kidnapping the child of a woman he loved, and watching her kill herself as a result. (and now note the nice parallels with Jon's actions with Gilly's and Mance's sons)

So now Connington, believing he has the true R+L (i.e., Young Griff), is on his way to Dany. Young Griff is a Dayne (a bastard anyway) and Ashara's son, and thus the mummer's dragon. He will eventually be exposed as such, and people (i.e., Connington) will start to make the connections and figure out what really happened.



*I can't recall whether in the books anyone thought thought Ashara might be pregnant around that time, but there are enough N+A theories around. Admittedly a hole in my wild speculation.


After reading your theory, I am looking forward to Tyrion's chapter and dealing with Young Griff the most out of the aDwD.