146 replies to this topic

[Hannibal]

Please can somebody tell me where can i get Tyrions chapter ... i have only Daenerys one chapter !
Thx a lot !!

[Jon Targaryen]

Hannibal, on Apr 2 2006, 06.52, said:

Please can somebody tell me where can i get Tyrions chapter ... i have only Daenerys one chapter !
Thx a lot !!

You can't. It was read at a signing.

[Aeron]

Thanks for the spoilers!

[Lann_Boys'Girl]

wow, i JUST reread this today. It's a Bran chapter mid-Clash of Kings when Meera and Jojen show up to do fealty. Bran tries to remember things about the Reeds and that conversation with his father about Howland Reed/Arthur Dayne comes to mind.

[Arya Stark]

A question - in these summaries, Varys' spies are mentioned as "mice", but in my books, they're mentioned as "little birds." I live in the USA - is there a difference in different worldwide editions?

[Ealasaid]

roeh61, on Apr 1 2006, 14.16, said:

.

I only started reading these series in November.  So i don't know how dependable these spoilers are, any words of wisdom from someone who has suffered through these long waits between books?

I've been reading the Wheel of Time series since about 1993!  I fear i'm going to fall into the same cycle with this series (i already burned through the 4 available books all too quickly) of waiting years between books and then reading the books in a weekend.

Reread the series, you miss a lot the first time through. Then read each POV in succcession, I picked up a lot that way.  Read new authors.

But this series is a lot better than WoT, don't you think?

[Mezeh]

About Golden Company. There is a dialog in AFFC:

"“Or one. Are you aware that the Golden Company has broken its contract with Myr?”

“Sellswords break their contracts all the time.”

“Not the Golden Company. Our word is good as gold has been their boast since the days of Bittersteel. Myr is on the point of war with Lys and Tyrosh. Why break a contract that offered them the prospect of good wages and good plunder?”

“Perhaps Lys offered them better wages. Or Tyrosh.”

“No,” she said. “I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It’s home they want, as much as gold. Lord Yronwood knows that as well as I do. His forebears rode with Bittersteel during three of the Blackfyre Rebellions.”

This and Golden Company motto clearly indicates that it was founded by Bittersteel after Blackfyre rebellion.
Their goal and destination is also clear for us – Dany. The question however is why Grif see them as serious concern?

[urizen]

Mezeh, on Jun 18 2006, 09.55, said:

This and Golden Company motto clearly indicates that it was founded by Bittersteel after Blackfyre rebellion.
Their goal and destination is also clear for us – Dany. The question however is why Grif see them as serious concern?

Maybe "Grif" and his company has had not so cordial run-ins with the Golden Company in the past or maybe it's simply poiltics. With the GC Dany don't have the same need of Grif and his guys, causing them to be "just another mercenary company" where as if Grif gets to Dany first he can cut a better deal with Dany.

[Mezeh]

urizen, on Jun 18 2006, 04.09, said:

Maybe "Grif" and his company has had not so cordial run-ins with the Golden Company in the past or maybe it's simply poiltics. With the GC Dany don't have the same need of Grif and his guys, causing them to be "just another mercenary company" where as if Grif gets to Dany first he can cut a better deal with Dany.

Well assuming that Grif is obviously John Connington he surely could be not on the best terms with GC. After all they are descendants of rebels and he is Targ’s loyal. But if they mean to enter Dany’s why should he worry? After all common goal should mend old differences. As for rival for Dany’s welcome Jon Connington was Rhaegar close friend and Selmi will surely recognize him so Grif has here nothing to worry about. Still he think that he should hurry.  And why Illirio think that the fact that “dragon has three heads” makes the difference?

[Jon Targaryen]

Mezeh, on Jun 18 2006, 03.04, said:

And why Illirio think that the fact that “dragon has three heads” makes the difference?

The theory goes that young Griff is a fake Aegon. Illyrio has one of the heads of the dragon in his pocket.

[Mezeh]

Jon Targaryen, on Jun 18 2006, 14.29, said:

The theory goes that young Griff is a fake Aegon. Illyrio has one of the heads of the dragon in his pocket.

The question is could be a fake dragon one of the dragons heads?

I seriously doubt it. Illyrio speaks as he knows all three heads for sure. If one is fake what about the second? He apparently aware about prophesy and why would he try to cheat it? And why would Connington raise for years a fake dragon as his own son?

Another thing – if young Griff is a fake Aegon how possibly could it be revealed? If Connington will call him Aegon Dany almost surely would believe his late brother close friend. How could she find that he is lying? Well Connington may be deceived himself by Illirio but once again in this case unless Illirio will confess (why?) there is no obvious ways to catch the lie.

On the other side young Grif could possibly be a real Aegon. His age fits recently knighted means around 16. He was raised by Rhaegar’s friend the only one we know remained alive a friend who “died” in exile to avoid any notice and a friend who surely fits as Aegon mentor. We yet have to see this young Grif appearance since Martin mentioned that Aegon had Targ’s features.

But anyway fake or true dragon this doesn’t answer question why Illirio and Grif should be concerned about GC and why Grif is more concerned then Illirio.

[urizen]

Maybe Illyrio and/or "Griff" feels that the GC with it's Bittersteel decendants will "steal" young Griff's spot as a dragonrider if they don't hurry. Perhaps there are several Bittersteels in the GC who potentially can claim a spot as a Dragonrider. Dany as rider nr 1, "Ageon Bittersteel" as nr 2, "Daemon Bittersteel" as nr 3 = no spot for Grif Connington.

I don't like the fake Ageon= young Griff (and I like Aegon having survived even less..) as this would be hard to pull off, not to mention if Illyrio/"Griff" are found out they are screwed. Illyrio/"Griff", Griff actually being Jon Connington, has a good shot at ending up high in Dany's council without having to resort to trickery through some fake Ageon scheme.

[Mezeh]

urizen, on Jun 19 2006, 03.00, said:

Maybe Illyrio and/or "Griff" feels that the GC with it's Bittersteel decendants will "steal" young Griff's spot as a dragonrider if they don't hurry. Perhaps there are several Bittersteels in the GC who potentially can claim a spot as a Dragonrider. Dany as rider nr 1, "Ageon Bittersteel" as nr 2, "Daemon Bittersteel" as nr 3 = no spot for Grif Connington.

Dragons are still not rideble so if this is the only reason neither Illirio nor Grif have any reason to hurry – they have a couple of years to spare at least.

urizen, on Jun 19 2006, 03.00, said:

I don't like the fake Ageon= young Griff (and I like Aegon having survived even less..) as this would be hard to pull off, not to mention if Illyrio/"Griff" are found out they are screwed. Illyrio/"Griff", Griff actually being Jon Connington, has a good shot at ending up high in Dany's council without having to resort to trickery through some fake Ageon scheme.

Exactly been Rhaegar friend in the past and unlike even Selmy never betrayed Targs is enough to claim council end even Hand position. After all Dany would feel obliged to mend somehow obvious injustice her father made to Connington.

[urizen]

Mezeh, on Jun 19 2006, 12.13, said:

Dragons are still not rideble so if this is the only reason neither Illirio nor Grif have any reason to hurry – they have a couple of years to spare at least.

Perhaps, but suppose Dany appoints riders to the dragons before they are adults? That makes most sense really since Dragon and rider should have some sort of bond with eachother. A total stranger, appointed by Dany, trying to ride an adult dragon, that will end in failure. Me, I feel the dragonrider business will be settled as much by the dragon him/herself as by Dany. If for exemple Drogon don't want Tyrion as his rider then I'd say Tyrion won't be riding Drogon unless it's ride where Tyrion "accidentially" falls off and plummets to his death, curtisy of Drogon.

The only course of action for Illyrio/Grif is to do away with Dany's choices and that would not sit well with her.

[Mezeh]

Makes some sense but who said that each dragon could have only one rider during its lifetime? Rather not since dragons lives much longer then humans. And again how the fact that dragon has three heads connected with necessary to hurry?
If there some Bittersteel descendant in GC it could be reason for Grif to reach Dany before or not much after him but how three heads matter could possibly alter the fact?

[Harry the Heir]

urizen, on Jun 19 2006, 04.00, said:

Maybe Illyrio and/or "Griff" feels that the GC with it's Bittersteel decendants will "steal" young Griff's spot as a dragonrider if they don't hurry. Perhaps there are several Bittersteels in the GC who potentially can claim a spot as a Dragonrider. Dany as rider nr 1, "Ageon Bittersteel" as nr 2, "Daemon Bittersteel" as nr 3 = no spot for Grif Connington.

That doesn't fit with the summary. They have it as, "The dragon has three heads; there is no need for haste." So it's clear that Illyrio _isn't_ particularly worried about the Golden Company.

Jon T.'s interpretation isn't convincing either. Haldon starts about the threat posed by the Golden Company, and then Illyrio says the dragon has three heads, etc. By Jon's argument, Illyrio is saying something to the effect of, "Don't worry, we've got a head of the dragon under our control." But that doesn't follow as a response to what Haldon is saying. The threat posed by the Golden Company wouldn't necessarily change just because they're planning on announcing that Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen.

It seems to me that Illyrio is really saying that the Golden Company's intentions towards Dany don't have to conflict with their own. He could mean that Dany could conceivably have two husbands at once (hence three heads), or just that there's plenty of room for everybody at the party. This doesn't conflict with the idea that Young Griff is the false Aegon; Illyrio just isn't referring to that specifically here.

[Mezeh]

First – it’s obvious that both Illirio and Grif share some information.
Second they have some argument based on that information they don’t want to share with Tyrion. Or at least Haldon doesn’t want to share don’t knowing who Tyrion is.
The argument included “Quinn, dragon and sword”. Pretty much food for speculation, isn’t it?
Quinn is obviously Dany. So their argument connected to her. But this only mean that they have no doubts about GC final destination. Well we don’t them too. But “dragon” and “sword”? Only guesses possible here with nothing so far to prove any of them. Something connected with “dragon” and “sword” makes Grif to think that he must hurry and the same something looks of no concern to Illirio. The important thing here is the first point – they apparently know the same otherwise Irririo wouldn’t state his reason to think that there is no need to hurry.
Now the mention of “dragon” could possibly mean everything. If Dany was involved into argument the presence of this word is natural. The key could be “sword”. We know only about two swords that could be important. Targ’s family sword and legendary Lightbringer.    
I’m almost sure that this “sword” whatever it is is the reason Grif think they need to hurry.

[Miryana Storm]

Maybe "sword" could refer to conflict in general? But then, I'd prefer it if the Lannister and Targaryen swords weren't rediscovered.

Jon Targaryen, on Nov 6 2005, 22.04, said:

They eat and drink some more and Illyrio falls asleep. Tyrion ponders the Myrish Fire wine he is drinking and thinks of dragons. He remembers his lonely childhood and remembers his dreams of being a Targaryen Prince of a Valyrian dragonlord, flying over the land. He recalls when two of his uncles asked what he wanted for his nameday. He begged for a dragon, claiming it didn't have to be a big one. It could be little like him. Gerion laughed but Tygett shook his head and told him that there were no more dragon because the last died a hundred year before. Tyrion thought it was very unfair and had cried himself to sleep that night. He thinks of Dany's 3 dragons and in his heart he listens for the beat of leather wings.

I think I'll love this little scene. It's details like these that make GRRM's characters seem so wonderfully human.

[Mezeh]

Miryana Storm, on Jun 29 2006, 13.51, said:

Maybe "sword" could refer to conflict in general? But then, I'd prefer it if the Lannister and Targaryen swords weren't rediscovered.

IMHO “sword” is a reference to some sword and legendary Lightbringer wasn’t either Targ’s or Lannister sword.

Miryana Storm, on Jun 29 2006, 13.51, said:

I think I'll love this little scene. It's details like these that make GRRM's characters seem so wonderfully human.

So far this scene is the best argument in favor of Tyrion=Targ theory since we learned in AFFC and dragon’s dreams is Targ family trait.

[Miryana Storm]

Mezeh, on Jul 2 2006, 13.53, said:

So far this scene is the best argument in favor of Tyrion=Targ theory since we learned in AFFC and dragon’s dreams is Targ family trait.

I don't think it's much of an argument. There must be plenty of non-Targaryens who've heard the stories of Aegon's conquest and dreamed of experiencing the thrill of dragonflight. Cersei drew a picture of herself and Rhaegar flying on a dragon, that doesn't mean we'll discover she's Aerys's daughter. When has Tyrion dreamed of dragons? When he was a child and saw them as a way to rise above his mistreatment by his father and sister, and again now that he's heard that they actually exist and is on his way to meet Dany. There's also far more evidence of R+L=J, yet Jon has never dreamed of dragons.