163 replies to this topic

[Sherrit]

Sansa will be Lady of the Vale presumably. If Arya lives, then her, or if Jon does, him (if his vow is no longer valid).

[Dragons Dancing]

From the Osha/Rickon thread an astute observation.

Quote

as for conclusive evidence that Rickon is on Skagos: [first Jon chapter, dreaming through Ghost] "a wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enomrous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him." [emphasis added]

Shaggydog is the only black wolf. unicorns are described as shaggy. the 'goat' only had ONE HORN. boom, Skagos, island of unicorns.

Skagos is just off the coast of the Wall. Bound to be wildings there. For all we know Osha's tribe is from there. Who would think to look for any Stark kids on Skagos. I'm thinking she doesn't want Rickon found not now anyway. She doesn't know the south or the houses. If she has plans for ransom it is to the Watch or to whoever might become Lord of Winterfell.

If that is her plan, I hope Davos gets to her before she seeks out Ramsey. Yet, a rickon cannibal and feral direwolf may be just the thing for Ramsey pie.

Think about who would think to look on Skagos, North of the Wall or Bravios for any of the Stark kids if it was known they were alive? They are well hidden.

[JalenTigh]

Sherrit, on 21 July 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Sansa will be Lady of the Vale presumably. If Arya lives, then her, or if Jon does, him (if his vow is no longer valid).

Arya is not old enough

[Sherrit]

JalenTigh, on 21 July 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

Arya is not old enough

Well, duh. But by the time Rickon ends up in Winterfell and how long they are at the end of the story, Arya will be a woman flowered and probably a badass warrior. He'll have others with him for sure, but she's the oldest other than Sansa, and Sansa can have the Vale or she can have Winterfell. It's better for the Starks to have the East, so hopefully she'll bag Harry the Heir, stay there and have a bunch of kids.

[Dragons Dancing]

JalenTigh, on 21 July 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

Arya is not old enough

???? Arya is not old enough for what? For becoming the Lady of Winterfell? I kind of hope that she is the Stark to restore the house. Right now, none of the kids look like good candidates. With wise council, maybe. They are all war survivors with PTSS.

Edited by Dragons Dancing, 21 July 2011 - 01:07 AM.

[ENikolai]

I think I must have missed something in the chapter where Davos Seaworth is asked to find Rickon Stark. How did Lord Manderly know that Rickon was alive, and where he might be found? Also, if he knew that Bran & Rickon weren't killed at Winterfell, why did Lord Manderly consider Rickon the heir to Winterfell, and not Bran?

Edited by ENikolai, 21 July 2011 - 06:32 AM.

[JalenTigh]

Dragons Dancing, on 21 July 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

???? Arya is not old enough for what? For becoming the Lady of Winterfell? I kind of hope that she is the Stark to restore the house. Right now, none of the kids look like good candidates. With wise council, maybe. They are all war survivors with PTSS.

Try reading the original question. I asked who people thought would serve as Regent/Lord Protector if Rickon, or even Bran were found until they come of age... For that Arya is not old enough.

[JalenTigh]

ENikolai, on 21 July 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

I think I must have missed something in the chapter where Davos Seaworth is asked to find Rickon Stark. How did Lord Manderly know that Rickon was alive, and where he might be found? Also, if he knew than Bran & Rickon weren't killed at Winterfell, why did Lord Manderly consider Rickon the heir to Winterfell, and not Bran?

Wex, the ironborn kid. He was Theons squire/page. During the burning of Winterfell he escaped and hid in the Godswood tree.. he was still up in the tree when the Kids, Osha, and Hodor stopped there before splitting up. He heard their plans and followed Osha and Rickon... how far he followed seems to be a big question though. Anyways, Manderlay has him, and has been hiding him.

As for believing Rickon is the heir... Bran and the others headed towards the wall, he is probably assuming that they are dead. My own opinion though is also is that while he may know Bran iis alive, or could be.. he prefers he isnt because he may believe a cripple should not rule, or may be worried because Bran can not provide heirs. Either way, Winterfell will eventually pass Rickon or his children.

[ENikolai]

JalenTigh, on 21 July 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

Wex, the ironborn kid. He was Theons squire/page. During the burning of Winterfell he escaped and hid in the Godswood tree.. he was still up in the tree when the Kids, Osha, and Hodor stopped there before splitting up. He heard their plans and followed Osha and Rickon... how far he followed seems to be a big question though. Anyways, Manderlay has him, and has been hiding him.

As for believing Rickon is the heir... Bran and the others headed towards the wall, he is probably assuming that they are dead. My own opinion though is also is that while he may know Bran iis alive, or could be.. he prefers he isnt because he may believe a cripple should not rule, or may be worried because Bran can not provide heirs. Either way, Winterfell will eventually pass Rickon or his children.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Auska]

It seems slightly suspect that a squire would have been follow Osha undetected, but apparently he did and somehow learned where she intended to taken Rickon. They've not verified the pair actually made it there, since Rickon would have been captured if that were the case. From the hints it seems Skagos was the destination, although it's unclear how Osha decided that. She's presumably not wildly educated but perhaps Mance has outposts there, or she knows someone? Maybe that's the way they came down around the wall.

[Maia]

I have to take my metaphorical hat off to people who called Skagos for Osha and Rickon after Bran's dream in ASOS. I was agruing against it .

Still, I have to wonder how or why anybody with a ship and crew would agree to take Rickon and his direwolf to Skagos on the say-so of a wildling, instead of selling him to one of the Northern lords.
I mean, they could offer no payment, right?  
And it wouldn't be very safe either, since the crew would know where they went. And it is very doubtful that any ships call on Skagos or voluntarily sail any closer to it than they have to.
Of course, Osha may have been one of the wildlings who have crossed the Bay of Seals and thus may know how to sail a boat. OTOH, them getting to Skagos on a boat that one person can sail is even more chancy than on a ship, which in itself is chancy enough.

Another problem is that in ASOS they expressly decided _not_ to discuss where they were going, except in the most general terms, when they parted ways in the godswood. So, Wex would have had to get close enough to overhear Osha talking to herself/Rickon to learn this... which seems  impossible, with Osha being a seasoned hunter and Shaggydog around.

I do really hope that   Martin manages to find some satisfying, non-contrived answers to all of this, because I really don't see how.

Oh, and Rickon is absolutely just 5 or so. How old was Little Walder when he was killed? He was 7 when he arrived at WF in ACOK.

[Tsavong Lah]

As for the question of Regent if Rickon is named Lord of Winterfell, I imagine that is part of Manderly's game. He sees a lot of benefit for his house if he is able to find Rickon. As the guy who saved their lord, and probably the next most powerful lord in the North (after the Starks and the Boltons). Being regent, and the power that comes with it, would be a very good thing for House Manderly.

[MinotaurWarrior]

@the Rickon age debate... Personally, I pay more attention to the way the kids are described than to their given ages, but you also need to take into account that the Starks are half direwolf, as wargs. It doesn't really matter that Rickon is a human child, because he's also an adult direwolf. I expect that the Skaggs will probably ignore his human body and just cow before the great black beast with the intelligence of a human (child). If Rickon's like Bran, he may have already consumed human flesh, and had sex ('become a man') as a wolf, making it not too difficult to integrate into their culture in a leadership position.

JalenTigh, on 21 July 2011 - 12:30 AM, said:

Kinda off topic... But if Rickon is found, and assuming Bran is not or turns down the seat (that would make sense since he would not be able to produce any heirs, so it would go to Rickon or Rickons sons eventually anyways)... Who will be his Regent/Lord Protector until he comes of age? Sansa is a possibility I guess... but other then a Stark, who would all the Northern lords support to be the one to raise and teach the young lord, as well as rule?

Immortals don't need heirs. Just sayin'.

As for your question, it really just depends on who wins the war. I imagine Manderly would probably want himself or one of the other older northern lords to rule as reagent, Stannis would give the honor to one of his Soutron Lords, Lannister and Tyrell would leave it up to Bolton, who would kill Rickon, Dany and Aegon are unforeseeable to me.

[JalenTigh]

Tsavong Lah, on 21 July 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

As for the question of Regent if Rickon is named Lord of Winterfell, I imagine that is part of Manderly's game. He sees a lot of benefit for his house if he is able to find Rickon. As the guy who saved their lord, and probably the next most powerful lord in the North (after the Starks and the Boltons). Being regent, and the power that comes with it, would be a very good thing for House Manderly.

Im sure the other Northern lords besides Lady Dustin and the Boltons would be appreciative of Manderlay finding him, but I dont know if that would do enough to make them trust and follow him. They all mistrust him. But I agree, thats part of his plan. Probably marry him to Wyla too down the line.

[SerHobbes]

Reyne, on 20 July 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

I thought that was one of Salladhor Saan's ships

Yeah, it's a galley (not a cog) that smashes on Skagos, indicating Salladhor's raiding vessels. Besides, it'd be really difficult for Wex to know where Osha and Rickon went if they accidentally crash-landed there.

[Dragons Dancing]

Seems far fetched because so few details given. Possible and likely Osha took Rickon to White Harbor to find a boat going to Skagos. There are no other ports north of White Harbor where she could find galley's travelling to Skagos.

Skagos belongs to the North (Wiki) with 3 houses in fealty to Winterfell. Few treat with them, even the North, because of their barbarism, but they are North bannermen and part of the Kingdom and they need supplies at a minimum.

Odds are good that there are escaped wildings there due to proximity to the Wall. Osha may have friends/family, but if not, she would feel more comfortable in this wild environment than anywhere south that she is unfamiliar with.

With this scenario I do not think it is far fetched that Wex followed her. She had to travel south a small ways to get to White Harbor and he would want to go south himself. Once in White Harbor, he watched and overheard her make arrangements to travel to Skagos and then he found a way to get to Manderley with his tale. While he was mute and could not read/write, he would have been familiar with the houses as Theon's man servant. The Manderly House is centered in White Harbor.

I wonder how Wex got in to see Manderley and how he communicated that he knew something about Winterfell when he could not speak. Somehow he got to him or someone who he tried to communicate what he had seen. This mini story I would like to read. Wex is iron born so maybe that oddity in White Harbor caught someone's interest.

In response to post positing Osha going To Eastwitch, seems unlikely for fear of being recognized as a wilding and doubtful that Wex would want to follow her to Eastwitch and then back track to White Harbor. If Wex's story is true and everything else he told Manderley, we know to be true, then she left from White harbor IMO.

[Darth Dragonstone]

JalenTigh, on 21 July 2011 - 06:27 AM, said:

Wex, the ironborn kid. He was Theons squire/page. During the burning of Winterfell he escaped and hid in the Godswood tree.. he was still up in the tree when the Kids, Osha, and Hodor stopped there before splitting up. He heard their plans and followed Osha and Rickon... how far he followed seems to be a big question though. Anyways, Manderlay has him, and has been hiding him.

As for believing Rickon is the heir... Bran and the others headed towards the wall, he is probably assuming that they are dead. My own opinion though is also is that while he may know Bran iis alive, or could be.. he prefers he isnt because he may believe a cripple should not rule, or may be worried because Bran can not provide heirs. Either way, Winterfell will eventually pass Rickon or his children.

Agree.

I recall one of Maester Aemon's last lessons for Jon.  "Kill the boy."  To be a proper leader, you must put away childish things and be willing to make hard decisions.

Rickon has had a pretty tough childhood.  Not much of a childhood at all, really.   Think it's fair to say he will not have much problem making tough decisions.  He's grown up with them.   Also grown up ranging the northlands with a wildling.  The good news about his upbringing is, he "knows" the North more from the perspective of the Starks who tamed it the perspective of his immediate forebears.  That could be a good thing.

The bad news is, he could end up being something more Bolton than Stark.  

Bran is the character I am most interested to see in the next book, to see if he continues to stand side stage, or moves forward to play a more integral role in resolution of the Song of Ice and Fire.    I'm thinking we see a lot more of him.  Seems almost certain if Jon "goes gray" per GRRM.  Rickon is the last virile Stark capable of rule.   And there must always be a Stark at Winterfell.

[Ygritte's fur]

Suldog, on 20 July 2011 - 08:01 PM, said:

OMG, that sounds like Mereen v.2.  cue Darth Vader 'NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!'  Please, for the sake of all that's holy, let Davos get on and off this island in less than 3 POV chapters.  The last thing we need is a cannibal-tribesman-Lord of the Flies subplot.  Do. Not. Want.

Lol. Ditto.

[gmavridis]

Suldog, on 20 July 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

How old is Rickon now?  he was three in GOT - how many years have gone by?  He's only 5 or so now, right?

Yes. We are now on 300 A.L. and Rickon is 5.

[Riverrun]

Why are so many people assuming Rickon won't remember Winterfell and will need to be convinced? Adults don't remember their childhoods in much detail, but an 5-ish year old will remember just fine! He may be attatched to the stoneborn, but I am sure he will remember Winterfell, it was only two years ago-ish!

Edited by Riverrun, 27 July 2011 - 09:42 AM.