A Wheel of Time

[fionwe1987]

Rand's tav'eren (spelling?) and I don't remember about Mat but Perrin's definitely going to be there, and he's got this zen-jesus thing going. I think it might be quite hard for them to disagree with him. And well, he's the dragon fucking reborn.

Ta'veren doesn't work that way. Latra Pose was able to oppose Lews Therin just fine. Egwene was able to talk to Rand and argue with him in the Hall just fine.

With regards to female channelers whose loyalty to him is beyond question - Nynaeve and Alivia, are more than enough if Egwene really wants to prove she's the worst person in the world :P

Yeah, that assumes Egwene is wrong. She has excellent reason to oppose him at the moment, though. For one thing, he has admitted her has no plan for dealing with the DO after breaking the Seals. For another, her Dream showed her doing so would be a disaster...

[Apathete]

Ta'veren doesn't work that way. Latra Pose was able to oppose Lews Therin just fine. Egwene was able to talk to Rand and argue with him in the Hall just fine.

Yeah, that assumes Egwene is wrong. She has excellent reason to oppose him at the moment, though. For one thing, he has admitted her has no plan for dealing with the DO after breaking the Seals. For another, her Dream showed her doing so would be a disaster...

Egwene has to be wrong for narrative purposes, Rand realised that you had to break the seals in his epiphany. If he's wrong then his epiphany was wrong and then his character development is wrong. For this reason the three becomes one also has to refer to Callandor, because it was Min's big idea.

I suspect Rand does have some sort of plan, which we won't see because we won't go inside his head much during the next book.

[The-Bard-of-Dungbriar]

The series as a whole? I think it gets misrepresented quite often. The most common complaints are usually subjective "I didn't like all the plot-lines" kind of things, which is fine, people enjoy what they enjoy, but that's not really indicative of poor writing. Another thing is the varied and lengthy descriptions of the dresses that the women wear. Well, Jordan has a self-admitted interest in women's fashion, and I think he believes (correctly) that adding little details can help some readers envision the world much better. It would be like complaining that a horse-lover's book had too much about horses in it... well, that might be your opinion, but it's hardly a fact. The repetitiveness of certain character traits is probably the biggest one that I have a problem with, I mean the complaint against it, not the actual repetitiveness. First, most people in real life have repetitive traits, both physical and mental, that astute observers can notice. Second, how can someone who is a fan of Tyrion complain about this? If I can find one chapter with Tyrion where he doesn't mention his sexual organ at least once I'll be pretty surprised. Is it bad writing? Not necessarily, it informs us to the character's outlook on life. One pulls a braid to express her inability to control her anger, one cracks a dirty joke to express his hatred for his own body. Now, you may forgive one and hate the other, but that comes down to personal preference. Personally, I enjoy both characters, but while I don't mind the braid pulling, I do start to roll my eyes just a bit at Tyrion. As is clear from many of the previous posts on this thread, many people feel the exact opposite.

Another common complaint is that it's not morally complex, that the characters are too black and white. I feel this (somewhat willfully) ignores large parts about the book and the characters. Moraine is introduced as being fully capable and willing to kill all three of the boys to achieve her goals. Lan is even more cold and would kill them simply because Moraine ordered him to. Rand is responsible for countless deaths. Mat and Perrin have both been responsible for countless deaths, and Perrin even went so far as to torture a man for information. The Aes Sedai and the Children of Light, both organizations mainly filled with people who wish to better society and fight the Dark One, in actuality are extremely amoral political organizations that have put their own existence and agenda's consistently above the good of anyone but themselves. Many of the characters in WoT are good people, but they also do some evil things, though their goodness and evil remains relatively consistent. I find this to be more realistic however. Good people will usually do good things, bad people will usually do bad things. Is there darkness? Well, let's put it this way: you take the most evil character in aSoIaF and put them in a room with Moridin or Padan Fain and they will suddenly look nice and lily-white. To quote Arnold, "(they) are f***ing choir boy(s) compared to me!"

Moral complexity is a thing I find most intriguing about fantasy readers and their perceptions of the books they read. Lord of the Rings, for example, is often touted as having characters that are too black and white. This is especially hilarious considering the fact that the entire series is based upon the idea that every single one of Frodo's companions is incapable of even being near the ring for very long without being corrupted, and think of where the series ends: Frodo makes the wrong decision. He dooms the world for the love of the ring and it's power. The world is only saved because Gollum, one of the most morally complex characters ever created, steal the ring back from Frodo and happens to fall into the pit while dancing with glee. The good guys failed in LotR, they broke. People forget that because Tolkien didn't come right out and slap us in the face with it; he allowed the reader to fill in the blanks. I've found that nearly every moral question that one could ask has been addressed or asked in both LotR and WOT.

As for the apparent slowdown of the plot, I can only argue that I actually preferred the later style of the books. Reading Lord of Chaos again just a few months ago, I was flabbergasted at the idea that this series could be finished in less than a dozen more books without wrapping up plot-lines too quickly or leaving loose ends hanging. He's already had to wrap things up too quickly in my opinion, and honestly, I can barely see how he's going to do it with only one more book. Some people found the sub-plots to be boring, but I devoured them, and am still eager for more. Most people hate Perrin's arc with Faile, but I thought it was awesome. Perrin loses his wife and precedes to do what no one else in the entire series has done: he tells the Wheel and the Pattern to go stick their head in a barrel and he refuses to budge until he gets his wife back, he actually beats being Ta'veran. I don't see what most people expected though? His wife, the only real family he has, is kidnapped and he is supposed to just brush it off with a "whatever, duty calls, I'm not worried about it"??? Plus people seem to forget that the Two Rivers kids are supposed to be 18-21. How many 20 year olds do you know that have really deep and complex loves? No! They have simple, passionate, burning and lustful loves. Obviously Perrin would be consumed by the desire to get his wife back, she's been kidnapped by Aiel who could be doing god knows what to her! I'd like to meet the weakling that wouldn't be off saving his new bride so I can kick him in the groin for being such a coward.

Basically: there is a difference between not preferring something, and it actually being objectively bad. Jordan's writing is not amazing, but it is certainly not bad prose. His characterization is usually pretty good (despite the vast exaggerations of his critics), his understanding of military tactics is almost unparalleled in the fantasy world, and his story is a very complex and interesting one. Maybe the whole "personification of evil" thing isn't your deal, but one can't argue that Jordan has done it very well with the Dark One, who feels very, very evil. The lack of (major) character deaths reflects this (I find it funny that Moraine is never considered as a "dead" character), in that the Dark One is rarely concerned with merely killing his enemies. He wants them subjugated and corrupted before he kills them, and we are never quite sure as to what his final goals are, but are sure that even his most devoted followers are not privy to the plan (except perhaps Moridin). I think it takes a little more thought than people give it credit for, but there it is.

/useless and irrelevant rant

[wolverine]

Is there darkness? Well, let's put it this way: you take the most evil character in aSoIaF and put them in a room with Moridin or Padan Fain and they will suddenly look nice and lily-white. To quote Arnold, "(they) are f***ing choir boy(s) compared to me!"

/useless and irrelevant rant

IMO there is a big difference between demon-like possessed spawn of the devil and someone like Ramsay Bolton who is just a sick fucked up person.

Ramsay Bolton is far more disturbing for me since he has no evil incarnate force behind his actions.

[The-Bard-of-Dungbriar]

I like your description of them, as opposed to Ramsay, who is "just a sick fucked up person." Where as they are demon-like and spawn of the devil. Ramsay's motives and thoughts are still those of a man, an extremely psychotic man, but still a self-interested and self-fulfilling desire. Fain and Moridin represent a Ramsay who is more calculating and more accepting of his evil, what Ramsay could become if he were to destroy his own humanity and sacrifice even his own fulfillment for the desire to spread evil. We can relate more to Ramsay on many levels because, quite simply, there are more Ramsays than Fains in our world. We deal with people like Ramsay more often (though hopefully extremely rarely in either case) than we do with people like Fain and Moridin. Some would argue that there is no person who is like Fain or Moridin, and that is a legitimate philosophical/religious argument, but I don't think the novels should be judged on portraying an extremely old and popular archetype just because the audience may not agree that the archetype exists in this world.

The idea of a man who is so full of hate and spite and evil intentions that he has become like a "demon" is a very old one. Most, if not all, ancient cultures either worshiped, hated, feared, or believed in these demons, and demons of different sorts. Now, I don't bring any of this up as a religious argument, but as a literary one: the archetype is ancient and widespread and is commonly accepted and recognized as a legitimate one for study. I would argue that GRRM picked a very interesting archetype himself, and that Ramsay is a very scary character on a very primal level. In the end, though, Ramsay is mostly a physical threat. That doesn't mean he is a less dangerous threat, but his methods and concerns are mostly physical. He will torture you and kill you, but he won't break you morally, except in the seemingly rare case of Theon/Reek. The "demon" is no less interested in torturing you, or in killing you, but he is more calculating and patient in his purpose, which is to destroy your soul, to have you become the Ramsay, and then finally the demon. One could argue that Ramsay is scarier because you are more likely to run into him on the streets, but I wouldn't necessarily agree.

[fionwe1987]

Egwene has to be wrong for narrative purposes,

Actually, no. For narrative and thematic purposes, Egwene and Rand are both half right, and the correct solution will only come when the collaborate and pool their info.

Rand realised that you had to break the seals in his epiphany.

No he doesn't. The idea was planted in his head well before, and he made the decision to break the Seals well before his epiphany.

If he's wrong then his epiphany was wrong and then his character development is wrong. For this reason the three becomes one also has to refer to Callandor, because it was Min's big idea.

Nope. Min herself is doubtful of the Callandor interpretation. And it doesn't add up at all. The most likely explanation is Mat, Rand and Perrin becoming "one".

I suspect Rand does have some sort of plan, which we won't see because we won't go inside his head much during the next book.

He has said straight out he doesn't have one, in ToM. Unlike ToM, though, we're going to go into his head plenty of times in the final book. Sanderson has said that Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Egwene have roughly equal number of PoVs, and are the four major characters around whom events will be crystallizing in aMoL.

As for Moridin: He doesn't want to spread evil. He's not interested in being evil. He thinks good and evil are meaningless terms. Evil, and association with the Dark One, are a means to an end, for him- the end of the world. He wants the destruction of reality, and since the Dark One can do that, he works for him.

As for Fain: he is a representation of overreach. The core concept behind the concept of Mordeth is the idea that there have to be limits, and that the ends do not justify the means. Mordeth is/was passionately against the Shadow. As much as the heroes. But he decided to oppose it using its own means and tactics. He sought powers that would allow him to do things that were evil, but he did them in the service of good. As a character, he makes more sense to the story than yet another psychopath like Ramsay does. Ramsay is portrayed with no sympathy. He was just "wrong". He does immensely evil things for the fun of it. He's one dimensional and boring.

Now, Fain is mad. His PoVs don't induce even the remotest bits of sympathy. But his backstory (Mordeth's) is easy to sympathize with. Anyone can understand the concept of "destroy my enemies no matter the cost". If they don't, they have Rand's journey to point it out to them.

The problem is not that at a fundamental level, Fain and Moridin are characters who can't be understood. Its just that, given the way the narrative is arranged, we never get into either of their heads to the same extent we do, say, Jaime's. Of course, most people completely forgot what a bag of shit Jaime was once they read his PoVs, but what they were meant to do is show that there's a logic to his path to becoming that shit-bag. We don't get that with Moridin, because he's set up as the chief antagonist. Instead, we only get hints of it in his few PoVs. Read them sometime. They're uncanny in how rational and calm they are. This isn't a frothing villain.

[Apathete]

The Rand thing I would argue with you, but I can't remember the books well enough currently to quote stuff. I agree that they need to work together to win though.

For Min though, she has to be right.

SHe was mocked by the Aes Sedai for her studying, but was accepted after she pointed out the Callandor thing, which Casuande supported. If Min is wrong, then she shouldn't have accepted, and all her studying has been wrong, implying that her last few books have been wasted. It would be massively narratively unsatisfying.

[fionwe1987]

The Rand thing I would argue with you,

Which Rand thing?

but I can't remember the books well enough currently to quote stuff. I agree that they need to work together to win though.

Cool.

For Min though, she has to be right.

SHe was mocked by the Aes Sedai for her studying, but was accepted after she pointed out the Callandor thing, which Casuande supported. If Min is wrong, then she shouldn't have accepted, and all her studying has been wrong, implying that her last few books have been wasted. It would be massively narratively unsatisfying.

She focused on the book. So ... Rand was to use Callandor as part of a circle, then? The three becoming one? But for what reason and with whom? If he was to fight the Dark One, then it didn't make sense for him to be in a circle with someone else in control, did it?

"Cadsuane," she said. "This is still wrong. There's more here. Something we haven't discovered."

"About Callandor?" the woman asked.

Min nodded.

"I suspect so as well," Cadsuane replied. How odd to hear her being frank! "But I haven't been able to determine what. If only that fool boy would revoke my exile, we could get on with more important—"

Min is quite aware she hasn't got the whole picture. Add the Jendai Prophesy about "all that he is can be seized" when he uses Callandor, and Min's viewing of an onyx hand holding Callandor, and you're left with some pretty clear foreshadowing that Callandor may be turned against Rand. Or this could all be a misdirect, and the Blade of Light is Justice, and the three are Mat, Perrin and Rand.

Either way, Min won't be wrong. She said straight out she doesn't have the whole story, and Cadsuane, who has been working on this a lot longer than Min, agrees.

[Arataniello]

With regard to the MoL blurb concering Matt, my recollection is that he, Thom and Moiraine were camped outside the Tower of Ghenjei at the end of the last book, and it is one of the other PoVs in the camp of the Red Hand that sees the fires in Caemlyn and raises the alarm. So it is possible that Matt's plotline does take him to Ebou Dar, and disassociated from the Trolloc assault on Andor's capital.

[fionwe1987]

With regard to the MoL blurb concering Matt, my recollection is that he, Thom and Moiraine were camped outside the Tower of Ghenjei at the end of the last book, and it is one of the other PoVs in the camp of the Red Hand that sees the fires in Caemlyn and raises the alarm. So it is possible that Matt's plotline does take him to Ebou Dar, and disassociated from the Trolloc assault on Andor's capital.

However, Mat told Moiraine he will be goig to Caemlyn first. The timeline by the end of ToM is such a mess that it could well be that by the time Mat got out of Ghengei, the attack was well under way in Caemlyn. In fact, Olver's sudden victory in the game of Snakes and Foxes probably corresponds to the exact moment Mat, Thom and Moiraine got out of the Tower.

Which means Mat will arrive to find Caemlyn all but taken, with the Band severely depleted by a heroic stand, and decides that given the immense power of the Shadow, the only way they can win is if the Seanchan ally with the Westlands. He may also hear rumours of the Seanchan attack on the Tower, which may convince him that he needs to change Tuon's mind sooner rather than later (he knows his sister is a Novice in the Tower, to add motivation).

[Pliskin]

I just started The Eye of the World and I'm about ~150 pages (in the French version).

And I don't understand... it's like some very very basic Fantasy story (no, rather a very basic Sword & Sorcery story) : a bunch of guys going in a journey, fighting hideous creatures, summoned by a Dark One (I just googled his English name).

I haven't really read this thread (fear of spoilers), but can someone tell me if it does get more "ASoIaF" somehow and, if so, how long does it take to ?

[wolverine]

I just started The Eye of the World and I'm about ~150 pages (in the French version).

And I don't understand... it's like some very very basic Fantasy story (no, rather a very basic Sword & Sorcery story) : a bunch of guys going in a journey, fighting hideous creatures, summoned by a Dark One (I just googled his English name).

I haven't really read this thread (fear of spoilers), but can someone tell me if it does get more "ASoIaF" somehow and, if so, how long does it take to ?

No, It never gets more ASOIAF. I loved it when I read it, starting 12 years ago, but it was my first introduction into fantasy. It is in almost no way comparable to ASOIAF.

[fionwe1987]

I just started The Eye of the World and I'm about ~150 pages (in the French version).

And I don't understand... it's like some very very basic Fantasy story (no, rather a very basic Sword & Sorcery story) : a bunch of guys going in a journey, fighting hideous creatures, summoned by a Dark One (I just googled his English name).

I haven't really read this thread (fear of spoilers), but can someone tell me if it does get more "ASoIaF" somehow and, if so, how long does it take to ?

If by more aSoIaF you mean more blood and gore and sudden death, then no. If you mean more politics and machinations and less adventure, then yes. That doesn't start till these characters start occupying a bigger place in the world stage (which take a couple of more books) but WoT is very very far from a basic Fantasy story. The introduction is very typical, because Jordan deliberately went for the feel of the start of the Lord of the Rings. The story expands in very different directions from there, though.

[Pliskin]

If by more aSoIaF you mean more blood and gore and sudden death, then no. If you mean more politics and machinations and less adventure, then yes. That doesn't start till these characters start occupying a bigger place in the world stage (which take a couple of more books) but WoT is very very far from a basic Fantasy story. The introduction is very typical, because Jordan deliberately went for the feel of the start of the Lord of the Rings. The story expands in very different directions from there, though.

Ok, you're reassuring me.

I don't care about gore and sudden death, as long as the world is somehow realistic. But I do hope it gets more about politics and epic complex story, with many characters and storylines...

And less Manichean, because this Dark One stuff, and creatures necessarily evil because they're ugly, doesn't seem really to my taste.

[David Selig]

The first book and especially the first 200-300 pages are the most cliched and typical fantasy-ish part of the series by far IMO, it gets better after this (at least in this respect).

[Poobah]

In the broad, cosmological sense the wheel is very dualistic - there are an equal and opposite Creator and Destroyer dietys. Magic is split into two equal, opposing halves, Saidin (male) and Saidar (female), yet on the other hand the one power (magic) is shown using a Yin-Yang symbol, and it's always said that the best things achieved were always done when both powers worked together. The wheel's cosmology is very very interesting anyhow, and I like it!

There's plenty of grey too. Some of the most misguided characters are those who believe in a world of black/white dichotomies.

Also I feel like it's the other way around with the Trollocs and Myrdraal, or I mean, there is a correlation but not in the way you imply it's not a case of ugly=evil but in their case they were made to be evil, and they were made also made to ugly because that helps them inspire fear. Some of the most beautiful characters in the world are some of the 'Forsaken' the Dark One's servants from the last age. Though there are beautiful good characters too, and ugly good characters, ugly bad characters, several exceptionally average characters...

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Pliskin - If you are hoping that you'll get many complex plotlines and characters and intricate foreshadowing, etc, then you've certainly found the right series.

[fionwe1987]

Ok, you're reassuring me.

I don't care about gore and sudden death, as long as the world is somehow realistic. But I do hope it gets more about politics and epic complex story, with many characters and storylines...

This happens oh so much. Just wait. That said, don't ignore the first book. There's a lot in there that is absolutely critical for the later books, including, I suspect, the soon to be released finale. Jordan planned his series very well. Paying attention carries a lot of rewards going forward.

And less Manichean, because this Dark One stuff, and creatures necessarily evil because they're ugly, doesn't seem really to my taste.

It doesn't become less Manichean. But the great thing about WoT is that the inspiration it take from real world mythology isn't restricted to one tradition. There's a lot of Arthurian stuff in there, tons of things tied to Hindu and Jain mythology, Chirstianity, Irish folklore, Norse myth...

[Pliskin]

Pliskin - If you are hoping that you'll get many complex plotlines and characters and intricate foreshadowing, etc, then you've certainly found the right series.

Ok, thank you all for your answers !

I'll continue reading the series. I may return to give my impressions ^^