298 replies to this topic

[Datepalm]

fionwe1987, on 19 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Datepalm: "Ravens" is the prologue of the kid's version of Eye of the World, where they split the book into two. This prologue is from the point of view of a nine year old Egwene seeking to be the best at carrying water, and adds absolutely nothing to the story. All it does is presents the major points of the story in simpler way, by having Tam basically explain the Breaking to the kids of the Two Rivers.

Lamest thing i've heard ALL DAY.

[kcf]

Datepalm, on 19 July 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

Lamest thing i've heard ALL DAY.

yep, that about sums it up.

[moot]

fionwe1987, on 19 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

I'm confused. The Others pose as much as a risk to Westeros as the Dark One does to Randland. In both cases, the politics is distracting from the true issues that need to be faced. In both cases, the politicking has shaped the way the real battle will be fought.

Except that The Others look to be defeatable, and not just by The Chosen One. If I'm reading my foreshadowing correctly, The Others should be defeatable with a great deal of fire (and something else already alluded to). This is just my guess, though. But if I'm right, that means no one person needs to be responsible for defeating them. And if this theory holds, then defeating the Others becomes part of the political game, and not just an aside. Whoever is involved with getting rid of them scores huge points.

In an alternate theory, even if the Others become the main opponent in the last battle, there's still going to be politics involved in the coalition. Who joins up, who doesn't…

With the Dark One, we know right from the start that only one person is destined to (potentially) defeat him, and that's the Dragon Reborn. So everything else that goes on is pointless tooling around until we get to that battle. Rand could have spent the entire 13? 14? books in a cave learning his Jedi skills to defeat the Dark Lord, then come out at the last moment to fight him, and nothing that happened to anyone else the entire length of those 13-14 books would matter at all.

With the Others, if the factions don't get it together and agree about what really matters, then the Others will take over Westeros and everyone in it will die. So everything happening throughout all the books matters and everyone's decisions count. Is the difference still not clear enough?

[Datepalm]

kcf, on 19 July 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

yep, that about sums it up.

Plus, I have to wonder, how much more kid friendly can you get? I read EotW when I was 11, ffs, and it wasn't exactly stretching my capacity in reading comprehension.

[kcf]

Datepalm, on 19 July 2011 - 06:56 PM, said:

Plus, I have to wonder, how much more kid friendly can you get? I read EotW when I was 11, ffs, and it wasn't exactly stretching my capacity in reading comprehension.

well, they increased the font size and divided the book in two to reduce the size. Really, just cosmetics.

[Werthead]

Datepalm, on 19 July 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

say, whas this 'Raven's prologue everyone is on about? Is there some new edition or something? My copy of EotW, of unknown age, but no younger than 1999, just has the good old Dragonmount prologue, followed straight by chapter 1 with that fucking rising wind.

As everyone says, it really is lame. In the Two Rivers everyone goes ape every time someone even thinks about mentioning something to do with the Shadow, so Tam sitting around telling the kids about the Breaking is implausible anyway. Then the way the chapter ends, leading directly into the Lews Therin/Ishamael prologue, makes you think that Tam is literally telling the kids about these events in detail down to the exact dialogue used, which isn't the case.

It was a really weird thing to do to the book and I'm glad that it seems to have been disregarded and never integrated into the adult edition of the book. It's really useless.

[fionwe1987]

moot, on 19 July 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Except that The Others look to be defeatable, and not just by The Chosen One. If I'm reading my foreshadowing correctly, The Others should be defeatable with a great deal of fire (and something else already alluded to). This is just my guess, though. But if I'm right, that means no one person needs to be responsible for defeating them. And if this theory holds, then defeating the Others becomes part of the political game, and not just an aside. Whoever is involved with getting rid of them scores huge points.

The zombies made by the Others are defeatable with fire/dragonglass, but the Others and the Great Other are another matter. We have some hints on this in aDwD, but nothing conclusive. And all the yapping about the Prince that was Promised, Azaor Ahai reborn, Lightbringer, etc. certainly do point to there being one, or a couple, of people who are absolutely critical to defeat the Others.

Quote

In an alternate theory, even if the Others become the main opponent in the last battle, there's still going to be politics involved in the coalition. Who joins up, who doesn't…

How is this any different from WoT? Its not like all the characters are holding hands and singing kuhm-ba-yah even by the end of the penultimate book. There's a load of political factions disagreeing on everything from

Spoiler

how to treat the Dragon Reborn to how to actually defeat the Dark One. And that's just people from the mainland. Add the Seanchan, and the issue becomes even more complicated.

Quote

With the Dark One, we know right from the start that only one person is destined to (potentially) defeat him, and that's the Dragon Reborn. So everything else that goes on is pointless tooling around until we get to that battle. Rand could have spent the entire 13? 14? books in a cave learning his Jedi skills to defeat the Dark Lord, then come out at the last moment to fight him, and nothing that happened to anyone else the entire length of those 13-14 books would matter at all.

That's an absurd reading of the books.

Spoiler

The Prophesies say Rand is critical to defeating the Dark One. Nowhere is it even hinted that he alone is enough, or that he can succeed in a vacuum. Not only are most of the major characters themselves a part of the Prophesies, any number of visions and dreams have made it clear that Rand alone will simply lose. Just look at how close he came to destroying the world all on his own. Without people like Cadsuane (who isn't even the most critical of characters), the Shadow would have been able to use him to destroy the world. Quite apart from that, it is clear the men and women need to work together to Seal the Bore again, and that is as political a situation as you can find, in the world of WoT.

By now, it has become blindingly obvious Rand and Egwene need to work together to defeat the DO. Yet, by the end of book 13, they're not even close to agreeing on how to defeat him, and there are likely going to be huge political differences on how they want to handle the Seanchan. It is also clear the Seanchan are needed to defeat the DO, yet, if anything, getting them into the fold is going to be harder than harmonizing the goals of Egwene and Rand!

Lastly, the entire operation of the Foresaken has been to play the political games of the "good guys" and cripple them well before the final battle. While the individual plots have mostly been defeated, they have summed to create an untenable political situation just as the Last Battle is about to break.

Quote

With the Others, if the factions don't get it together and agree about what really matters, then the Others will take over Westeros and everyone in it will die. So everything happening throughout all the books matters and everyone's decisions count. Is the difference still not clear enough?

No it isn't, since the exact same thing is the case in WoT.

Spoiler

How do you think the last Battle will play out if Egwene manages to unite the women in her opposition to Rand's plan, as she seems well on her way to doing? What happens when all the human armies are divided between fighting the Trolloc hordes as well as the Seanchan? Rand can't do anything to save the world till these political issues are tackled, and all the foreshadowing in the series hints that the solving of these political issues is going to be intimately tied to the Last Battle, not a prelude to it.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Without reading the thread, are there ADWD spoilers contained in the above discussion regarding the Others and the Dark One?

[Lady Nerevar]

moot, on 19 July 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Except that The Others look to be defeatable, and not just by The Chosen One. If I'm reading my foreshadowing correctly, The Others should be defeatable with a great deal of fire (and something else already alluded to). This is just my guess, though. But if I'm right, that means no one person needs to be responsible for defeating them. And if this theory holds, then defeating the Others becomes part of the political game, and not just an aside. Whoever is involved with getting rid of them scores huge points.

Isn't the whole point of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised to be the Chosen One to defeat the Others? I don't think we can safely say that (after 5 books to the contrary) everyone will stop bickering and band together when the threat becomes known. Stannis is the closest we got, and that wasn't very much. The defeat of the Dark One in WoT isn't a strait forward hero-beats-villain-singlehandedly deal either: we know for sure that he needs two women to help him out, and the world's armies (which he has to win through politicking with Egwene et al.) to hold back the Big Bad's forces. I'd say WoT and SoIaF have a roughly equal Chosen One to Political Stuff ratio, they just present it very differently. SoIaF focuses on the politics, WoT on the prophesy.

WrathOfMe, on 19 July 2011 - 08:43 PM, said:

Without reading the thread, are there ADWD spoilers contained in the above discussion regarding the Others and the Dark One?

Nope, just stuff from the later WoT books.

Edited by Lady Nerevar, 19 July 2011 - 09:00 PM.

[lobes604]

My Disclaimer first .....ASOIAF is my favriote series hands down .......  IMO if your looking for something else to read theirs alot of shittier books to read than WOT.
WOT is actually on a majority of peoples top ten fantasy series . Its not as bad as people bash on here R J took epic fantasy to the next level , sure theirs wholes in it and some of the people in randland are annoying as shit and i would like to stab some of the female characters with a spoon but R J does a great job creating a very rich world  theirs alot of cool characters and some cool twists as well .
The way people are bashing WOT on here you would think we were talking about Tairy .... (dont want to spark that up LOL)

[elmis]

Andystoteles, on 19 July 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

(there´s a lot of bitching about the later books but thats just some internet-cojones-groupthink thingy)

Wait what? Have you read Crossroads of Twilight?

Datepalm, on 19 July 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

fionwe1987, on 19 July 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

Datepalm: "Ravens" is the prologue of the kid's version of Eye of the World, where they split the book into two. This prologue is from the point of view of a nine year old Egwene seeking to be the best at carrying water, and adds absolutely nothing to the story. All it does is presents the major points of the story in simpler way, by having Tam basically explain the Breaking to the kids of the Two Rivers.

Lamest thing i've heard ALL DAY.

LOL, I agree, that is really silly... going back after book 4-5 an rereading the Dragonmount prologue was amazing. It really is one of the best written parts of the books.

Edited by elmis, 20 July 2011 - 12:02 AM.

[Grack21]

elmis, on 19 July 2011 - 11:56 PM, said:

Wait what? Have you read Crossroads of Twilight?

Yeah I like WoT a lot but books 6-10 suck anus.

[Andystoteles]

elmis, on 19 July 2011 - 11:56 PM, said:

Wait what? Have you read Crossroads of Twilight?

Yes yes, a bunch of people on the internet hates it so you should to... Irving Janis anyone?

I dont care what part it is, i read Wheel of time, i read aSoIaF.

Ok, when it was released i wasn´t impressed, but on my last re-read of the whole series it fell into context.

[maize]

The Watcher, on 19 July 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

My dad loves the Wheel of Time series, and I need a new series to read.  However, I read the prologue to the first book and didn't get sucked in.  Does anyone have more extensive thoughts on the book and whether or not fans of the political aspect of ASOIAF will enjoy it?

I consider the first book of the series one of the most amazing fantasy novels ever written. Without revealing anything, the history of the Two Rivers, Rand and Matt with the lute and juggling, the incident with Elayne, Shadar Logath, Mashadar, Agelmar and Fal Dara, etc etc. You encounter a lot of fun history, magic, compelling characters, and the bad guys are genuinely scary.

The going is alright until book 5, then it starts slowing down. Still, there is a lot of moments where you are simply amazed by the Jordans creativity.

I'd say read at least the first 5 books, and afterwards if things get too slow for you, there are plenty of resources online that give you a great summary of what is happening. Then you can jump back in around Winters Heart, where things start picking up a bit.

Edited by maize, 20 July 2011 - 01:07 AM.

[nickg]

I would say avoid it if you didn't enjoy the prologue. Granted I'm only 3 books in ( and currently stalled for the foreseeable future ) but that was probably the best of what I have read. Just a poorly written series imo. That wouldn't even be such a big deal because I have read things that are as bad or worse, but I have begun to hate, or at least hate reading about the majority of the characters.

I do give him credit for his epic scale and worldbuidling, but I just couldn't get into it at all, and I haven't reached the epic bloat yet. There is just so much out there to read that is better. I will most likely finish it some day though, simply because its such a huge part of the genre.

Its a bad sign, at least to me, when people are suggesting to skip books and read a summary of the boring portions of a series. Why bother

Edited by nickg, 20 July 2011 - 01:25 AM.

[elmis]

Andystoteles, on 20 July 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Yes yes, a bunch of people on the internet hates it so you should to... Irving Janis anyone?

I dont care what part it is, i read Wheel of time, i read aSoIaF.

Ok, when it was released i wasn´t impressed, but on my last re-read of the whole series it fell into context.

Look, if you like the book, that's fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Just don't go about it being all book-hipsterish saying that the people who dislike it are just doing so because "everybody else is". That's rude, and kinda silly.

If the vast majority of people (at least the posters here) think a book is weak, it's usually for a reason. You can split my reason for disliking CoT up in three:

1. I waited for the book eager to read the aftermath of Winter's Heart. Two years in the waiting, and it's finally out, and that's what RJ served up. Let's just say the disappointment still lingers.

2. As a book it fails utterly, there is no real beginning or end (unlike most of the other volumes of the series). Nothing happens.

3. As a part of the grander series, it doesn't really work either. It's bloated, and the one plot that goes anywhere has been ongoing for a few books, but it has little-to-no impact on the main storyline (not to mention being weakest and most boring of all the WoT subplots).

Edited by elmis, 20 July 2011 - 02:56 AM.

[Shryke]

Crossroads of Twilight is terrible as a book. It's a hugely extended prologue to Knife of Dreams essentially.

As part of the series as a continuous single unit, it's not really that bad, though certainly one of the worst parts.

Edited by Shryke, 20 July 2011 - 03:05 AM.

[Andystoteles]

elmis, on 20 July 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

Look, if you like the book, that's fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion. Just don't go about it being all book-hipsterish saying that the people who dislike it are just doing so because "everybody else is". That's rude, and kinda silly.

If the vast majority of people (at least the posters here) think a book is weak, it's usually for a reason.

Yes, i´m entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that groupthink and agenda setting is often a bad thing for independent thought. I see it and i call it. Do with it as you please.

Sorry if you couldn´t see past the simplification, no rudeness and silliness intended.

[lobes604]

Andystoteles, on 20 July 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:

Yes, i´m entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that groupthink and agenda setting is often a bad thing for independent thought. I see it and i call it. Do with it as you please.

Sorry if you couldn´t see past the simplification, no rudeness and silliness intended.

TOUCHE !

[lobes604]

THE NORTH REMEMBERS !