298 replies to this topic

[awesome possum]

Started rereading the series in anticipation for the final book... was Perrin always this boring?

[Souran]

I think people on this board are WAY to hard on Wheel of Time.

Wheel of Time is quite clearly THE epic fantasy that represents the state of the entire genre in the 90's (even though the first books were written in the 80's).   It was easily the most influential series in fantasy literature for a over a decade.  (On the other side of that ASOIAF is clearly the most influcential series in current Fantasy literature as the spike in "Gritty" Fantasy.  If the 90's were WOT's time then the 00's were ASOIAF's time).

I think a lot of people expect something out of WOT that it just won't ever provide them, and the best way I can describe it is to talk about Star Wars.

A lot of people think that Star Wars is for only for little kids, or that the dialogue is bad, or that they can't believe some of the characters.  As with any criticsm there is an element of truth to these accusastions.  If you get caught up on those things then you can't enjoy Star Wars.  The maximium enjoyment comes from the sort of Zen understanding that if you just let the story be what it is and not what you want it to be its captifvating and fun - even if it is not the way you feel the story SHOULD go.

WOT is the same thing and the parrallels between the two "franchises" are immense.  As a reader in my teens and high school I wanted the series to never end.  I liked each book.  Now, as an older fan of the series I just want closure.  I think a lot of fans of the series are that way.  People claim that the later books drag.  I agreed on my frist read through, however I have found that when I can read them straight through without having to wait 3-5 years for a book that the slowness in the story seems to dissapear, that dealing with the large cast of characters is easier and that the movitivations for characters seem more consistant when you read the first part of their plan a week or a month ago as opposed to 100 weeks ago.


At this point WOT is what it is.  If you really can't stand the characters, particularly the rand/matt/perin and elayne/egwaine/nynaeve then yeah you probably won't like the books.  If you think that the the evil dark lord is goofy or that his 13 chosen/forsaken are stupid you won't like the books.  If you don't like cultural mashups (desert dwellers with norse features and native american and ancient hebrew customs) you won't like the books.  If you want the story to be edgie in the way that modern fantasy is then you will be dissapointed.

I want to go into that last point just a bit:  WOT is defiantly a "PG-13" type fantasy series, and that may be one of the things that people comming from ASOIAF find distresing/uncomfortable.  The whole series has a different, cleaner, feel than say Martin or Abercrombie.  However, the story feels less "gritty" than even the books of guys like Rothfuss or Abraham or even Sandersons own books.  I sometimes get the feeling that for some people this makes the story less "real" or relateable or able to hold their attention.  This I find Sad.  WOT has as much research in pulling together mythos from various traditions, spinning in elements of jupiter's cult and Odin's sagas.  It has its own take on vampires and werewolves, its own retelling of arthurian myth and celetic stories.  This is no less of a research effort of masterwork than Martin's ability to spin the time of 5 emperors, the romance of the three kindoms, the war of the roses, and sengoku period, and post english civil war jacobite succession histories into its own compelling tale of civil war.



I have probably ranted more than anybody will read.  The TL;DR version is just this:  WOT is a strong series and I eagerly await its close.  If you come at it expecting it to be something it is not you won't like it.   However, it is a masterwork of fantasy literature and while that invities picking it to pieces it also deserves a level of respect as an accomplishment.

[Apoapsis]

awesome possum, on 15 May 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Started rereading the series in anticipation for the final book... was Perrin always this boring?

Yes. He's even more boring than Egwene, if only because Egwene usually hangs around with important people doing important things.

[fionwe1987]

A good way to think of WoT, for me, has been to see it as the pinnacle of the "old style" fantasy literature and the transition series that bridged the gap between those and newer sereis like aSoIaF.

For one thing, the length of WoT certainly played its part in ushering in the era of longer series. But quite apart from them, it also represents the final shunning of the "elves, dwarves and humans" style of story. WoT is essentially a human story. The ultimade bad guy might be an alien Devil analogue, but his underlings are human beings, as are all the heroes. With the exception of the Ogier, there is no major PoV/character who isn't human. And in many ways, WoT is a political tale. It isn't totally black and white, and for large stretches of the books, the central anatagonists include not just evil minions of the Dark One but normal people with different views from the heroes. And many of these aren't the "kills cats and rapes women" brand of psychopaths either.

So I think it bridges the divide between the good old "good vs. evil" yarns and the more modern takes on fantasy where human conflicts predominate. And while it is far from perfect, WoT is a masterpeice of storytelling and careful plotting. It is also an example of spetacular loss of control of the plot at certain stages of the story. But definitely worth a read.

[nickg]

Well, I understand that WoT is popular, but Memory, Sorrow and Thorn came out around the same time ( first book in the late 80s I think ) and it is so much better. I am tempted to say it bridges the gap better than WoT does.

Now that the final book is coming I'm going to dive back in to the third book. Hopefully I can get can through it. I think I stalled about halfway.

Edited by nickg, 15 May 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[wolverine]

awesome possum, on 15 May 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Started rereading the series in anticipation for the final book... was Perrin always this boring?

Totally.  Perrin and maybe Rand began as the two characters I could most identify with and Perrin could have been awesome.  However, Perrin goes on about a 5 book emo depression that sucks to read.  Rand's storyline stays pretty awesome throughout, but you don't get enough of it in a couple books.

[Switchback]

i very much enjoyed williams' memory, sorrow and thorn, but it doesn't hold a candle to WoT in my opinion.  there has never been a book, or series of books, that better developed a world than Jordan did.  i really think this is where WoT shines.  plot and characters aside, the world of WoT is what makes it so fascinating, and makes people want to visit it book after book.  i've never read books that transported me to a different place better than Jordan.  while reading a WoT book i know the way things look, smell, sound and feel, and i care about not only the past and present, but the future of the world.  i'm invested in it.

[nickg]

Switchback, on 15 May 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

i very much enjoyed williams' memory, sorrow and thorn, but it doesn't hold a candle to WoT in my opinion.  there has never been a book, or series of books, that better developed a world than Jordan did.  i really think this is where WoT shines.  plot and characters aside, the world of WoT is what makes it so fascinating, and makes people want to visit it book after book.  i've never read books that transported me to a different place better than Jordan.  while reading a WoT book i know the way things look, smell, sound and feel, and i care about not only the past and present, but the future of the world.  i'm invested in it.

I get that, the world he has built is one of the reasons I want to stick with the series. Even though I struggle with the writing and characters  at times, there is a story buried under it all that I really want to enjoy. I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread - or one of the others - but I might have just come to WoT too late to enjoy it as much as someone who discovered it at a younger age.

I am a bit biased in this comparison though. I dont know if I can name  any completed series that I would favor over MST.

Edited by nickg, 16 May 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[fionwe1987]

nickg, on 15 May 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

Well, I understand that WoT is popular, but Memory, Sorrow and Thorn came out around the same time ( first book in the late 80s I think ) and it is so much better. I am tempted to say it bridges the gap better than WoT does.

Now that the final book is coming I'm going to dive back in to the third book. Hopefully I can get can through it. I think I stalled about halfway.

I've read only the first few chapters of MST, but it seems, on the whole, to be a lot less complicated a story than WoT, and a lot less "bridge-like". I may be wrong on this, but do the books end up having a lot of politics?

[Werthead]

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is solid and important as the first really popular epic fantasy series that was aimed squarely at adults rather than kids (well, the first after Thomas Covenant anyway), but the ending is poor and there are hundreds upon hundreds of pages of filler. Like most Williams series it is way too long, as the plot is too slight to be worth 3,000+ pages (although it's nowhere near as bad as the monstrously drawn-out Shadowmarch sequence). WoT has the same issue, of course, but it's story is so much bigger with so many more storylines and characters that it at least does a more credible job of filling the pages with something at least halfway interesting (Crossroads of Twilight and aspects of Books 8-9 aside, naturally).

Williams is, on a micro level, probably a better prose writer than Jordan, but Jordan's characters, storyline and world are more interesting and better-defined for me.

Quote

A good way to think of WoT, for me, has been to see it as the pinnacle of the "old style" fantasy literature and the transition series that bridged the gap between those and newer sereis like aSoIaF.

It's easy to forget that the two series weren't that far apart. A Game of Thrones came out six and a half years after The Eye of the World. A significant gap, but nowhere near as long as the gap between AGoT and its own supposed successors (10 years before The Blade Itself and The Lies of Locke Lamora).

[Zach H]

fionwe1987, on 15 May 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

For one thing, the length of WoT certainly played its part in ushering in the era of longer series. But quite apart from them, it also represents the final shunning of the "elves, dwarves and humans" style of story. WoT is essentially a human story.

I wouldn't say the shunning has been final given that I just read a book with elves that also managed to give me a more "human story" than I ever got with the Wheel of Time (Matthew Stover's Caine's Law for the curious).

[Frog Eater]

I have read and re-read the WOT series during the past two years. (maybe my first read was 3 years ago) and I think that WOT is worth the read. It is definately PG-13. Parts of the series do drag, and some of Elaynes chapters become almost unreadable. But on a whole, I am looking forward to the series coming to a conclusion.

I dont have any hate for Perrin or Faile, as many others do, but do hate on Elayne. I personally cannot stand her chapters, and found myself briefing through her chapters, because I just wish she would have been vaporized by Balefile in book 1. Would have saved 10,000,000,000 pages in the books describing the golden embroidery on the low cut green silk dress that shows too much bosom, that is not really that risque, it not like she is a Domani or something. rage.

I dont think its too late for someone to start the series.

[Werthead]

UK cover art and blurb for A Memory of Light.

Quote

‘And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died.’ From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon.

In the Field of Merrilor the rulers of the nations gather to join behind Rand al’Thor, or to stop him from his plan to break the seals on the Dark One’s prison – which may be a sign of his madness, or the last hope of humankind. Egwene, the Amyrlin Seat, leans toward the former.

In Andor, the Trollocs seize Caemlyn.

In the wolf dream, Perrin Aybara battles Slayer.

Approaching Ebou Dar, Mat Cauthon plans to visit his wife Tuon, now Fortuona, Empress of the Seanchan.

All humanity is in peril – and the outcome will be decided in Shayol Ghul itself. The Wheel is turning, and the Age is coming to its end. The Last Battle will determine the fate of the world..

For twenty years The Wheel of Time has enthralled more than forty million readers in over thirty-two languages. A MEMORY OF LIGHT brings this majestic fantasy creation to its richly satisfying conclusion.

Working from notes and partials left by Robert Jordan when he died in 2007, and consulting with Jordan’s widow, who edited all of Jordan’s books, established fantasy writer Brandon Sanderson has recreated the vision Jordan left behind.

A MEMORY OF LIGHT will be published on 8 January 2013.

[AUyushu]

Werthead, on 16 May 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is solid and important as the first really popular epic fantasy series that was aimed squarely at adults rather than kids (well, the first after Thomas Covenant anyway), but the ending is poor and there are hundreds upon hundreds of pages of filler. Like most Williams series it is way too long, as the plot is too slight to be worth 3,000+ pages (although it's nowhere near as bad as the monstrously drawn-out Shadowmarch sequence). WoT has the same issue, of course, but it's story is so much bigger with so many more storylines and characters that it at least does a more credible job of filling the pages with something at least halfway interesting (Crossroads of Twilight and aspects of Books 8-9 aside, naturally). Williams is, on a micro level, probably a better prose writer than Jordan, but Jordan's characters, storyline and world are more interesting and better-defined for me.

I agree with this all around. Bloated and mostly boring pretty much covers Williams' MST series. If I had read that series today rather than when I was younger I would have dropped it after a single book rather than finishing it. MST really didn't bring any gaps at all, it has it's own version of elves after all.

[SpaceChampion]

Quote

Approaching Ebou Dar, Mat Cauthon plans to visit his wife Tuon, now Fortuona, Empress of the Seanchan.

Seems like that can't possibly happen at the beginning of the book unless Mat gives up Caemlyn without a fight.

[wolverine]

Frog Eater, on 16 May 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I have read and re-read the WOT series during the past two years. (maybe my first read was 3 years ago) and I think that WOT is worth the read. It is definately PG-13. Parts of the series do drag, and some of Elaynes chapters become almost unreadable. But on a whole, I am looking forward to the series coming to a conclusion. I dont have any hate for Perrin or Faile, as many others do, but do hate on Elayne. I personally cannot stand her chapters, and found myself briefing through her chapters, because I just wish she would have been vaporized by Balefile in book 1. Would have saved 10,000,000,000 pages in the books describing the golden embroidery on the low cut green silk dress that shows too much bosom, that is not really that risque, it not like she is a Domani or something. rage. I dont think its too late for someone to start the series.

Whatever violence you wish on Elayne, I wish on Faile ten-fold.

[Lightning Lord]

aryasthebomb, on 14 May 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Thinking about starting this series since its deemed such a classic, but a have a few questions. Is this story worth the very long read? How is the writing as in is it hard to follow? Is it gritty? How is the violence handled as in is it like a grrm or sanderson novel or more in lines with tolkien? Any feedback would be greatly apreciated

The story is long, but you can skim about 1/3 of the books.  If you're not into collecting the series to put on your shelf, I'd recommend only borrowing books 7-11 from the library, whipping through them rather quickly to get the few plot progressions, then going back to true reading with Book 12.  You'll miss out on a bit, but it'll help if you're concerned about the time sink.

As for gritty...no.  There is some violence, but nothing graphically described.  There's a lot of "the wound hurt badly, like fire" or "he hacked and slashed, there was blood on his sword/axe, his foe's arm fell to the ground," but nothing much more than that.  "Grit" is mentioned, but not explored.

That said, I've really liked large parts of this series and I am impatiently waiting for the final installment.  This series introduced me to fantasy, so it'll always have a spot in my heart

[Werthead]

Quote

As for gritty...no. There is some violence, but nothing graphically described.

I can think of the queasy aftermath of one major battle which is described in a fair amount of detail, though it is an exception.

[Lightning Lord]

Werthead, on 22 May 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

I can think of the queasy aftermath of one major battle which is described in a fair amount of detail, though it is an exception.

Ah yeah, there is one.  This one?  

Spoiler

Lord of Chaos, with the shredded men?

  If that's the one, then I agree, but it is rather exceptional for the story.

[End of Disc One]

Huh, I was thinking that Perrin killed Slayer in ToM.  I guess I misremembered that and Slayer got away or something.