298 replies to this topic

[Grack21]

Wait, people are defending Crossroads of Twilight now? Jordan himself said that one sucked.

[alguien]

Grack21, on 20 July 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

Wait, people are defending Crossroads of Twilight now? Jordan himself said that one sucked.

Clearly he is one of those group-think haters as well.

[moot]

Andystoteles, on 20 July 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Yes yes, a bunch of people on the internet hates it so you should to... Irving Janis anyone?

Well I don't speak for anyone else, but I for one read as much as I could and I dislike WoT so much that I don't care how it ends. I read the books and formed my opinion long before I was a regular internet user (pre-1997), and I have no idea who Irving Janis is, and I'm not going to look him up.

You know, it is possible that people read and form their own opinions — like you — and that their (negative) opinions have nothing to do with what they've read online.

[JJMicromegas]

I stopped in the middle book #9 when I was 500 pages in and the plot had barely moved from the beginning of the book.

[moot]

Lady Nerevar, on 19 July 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

Isn't the whole point of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised to be the Chosen One to defeat the Others? I don't think we can safely say that (after 5 books to the contrary) everyone will stop bickering and band together when the threat becomes known. Stannis is the closest we got, and that wasn't very much. The defeat of the Dark One in WoT isn't a strait forward hero-beats-villain-singlehandedly deal either: we know for sure that he needs two women to help him out, and the world's armies (which he has to win through politicking with Egwene et al.) to hold back the Big Bad's forces. I'd say WoT and SoIaF have a roughly equal Chosen One to Political Stuff ratio, they just present it very differently. SoIaF focuses on the politics, WoT on the prophesy.

Right, but in aSoIaF, we don't know who the Chosen One is, so all the politics is still part of the thread.

I'll concede I don't remember any details about WoT since I abandoned it so long ago. I guess I was basing my arguments on my lasting impressions, which are all tainted (ha) by my general apathy for the series. If you say it matters, I'll let that stand. All I recall is that by the time I stopped reading, the only things I *might* have wanted resolution on were over the personal stories; the politics was just getting too convoluted and boring for me.

And that's all I'll say about that.

Edited by moot, 20 July 2011 - 05:39 PM.

[11th Heaven]

Sorry, accidental post - deleted.

Edited by Whiskeyjack Targaryen, 20 July 2011 - 05:56 PM.

[Migey]

Grack21, on 20 July 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

Wait, people are defending Crossroads of Twilight now? Jordan himself said that one sucked.

Not that i don't beleive you, but can you source this?

It is very rare for an author to admit that his own book was sub-par, but not unheard of. Paul Kearney, for example, expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his book, Ships from the West, the fifth and final book in his Monarchies of God series, to the point that he rewrote it.

[maize]

Grack21, on 20 July 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

Wait, people are defending Crossroads of Twilight now? Jordan himself said that one sucked.

I'll defend it... only because of the hilarious Amazon reviews. Here's an excerpt:

.
.
.
Part of what really makes Mr. Jordan's worlds so unique are the wonderful characters which populate them. I like nothing more than to scratch my head in befuddlement as yet another Aes Sedai is reintroduced into the plot whom I can no longer recall. It gives me an excuse to page to the back of the book and open up the 'Robert Jordan Appendix of Useless and Irrelevent Characters' which is always such a joy. I've created my own drinking game based on this called, [...]
For anyone who wants to play along the rules are simple:

1.) Is the character you're looking up totally irrelevent? Take a drink.
2.) Do you have reason to suspect said character will remain totally irrelevent? Take a drink.
3.) Does the character twitch her shawl? Take two drinks.
4.) Is she looking "cross-eyed" at someone? Take a drink.
5.) Do you know the exact design of the embroidery on the fringe of her shawl? Of course you do - take a drink. For your own sanity, consider taking another.

.
.
.

Edited by maize, 20 July 2011 - 06:07 PM.

[Frog One]

Starting a WOT thread on this forum is never a good idea...
ETA: this is going 500 replies at least

Edited by The Bare Hand, 20 July 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[Reposado]

It was definitely group think that caused me to give up and stop reading WOT before I'd ever even read an online review or forum. Before I'd read Kay, Bakker or even ACOK. It's the only explanation. It's not possible that this series became a drag after book 5, to the point where it caused me to give up on the genre as a whole for a few years.

[Grack21]

Migey, on 20 July 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

Not that i don't beleive you, but can you source this?

It is very rare for an author to admit that his own book was sub-par, but not unheard of. Paul Kearney, for example, expressed extreme dissatisfaction with his book, Ships from the West, the fifth and final book in his Monarchies of God series, to the point that he rewrote it.

  I'll try and look for it. I don't remember his exact phrasing, I mean he didn;t come right out and say it was shit or anything, but I believe it was something along the lines of it was the only book he regretted writing. Take that with the required amount of salt though, since my memory doesn't work so good no more.

[Whitebeard]

First four books were very enjoyable. 5-7 were just at the 'decent' line. 8-10 were boredering unredable. 11 was 'decent' again, and 12, written by Brandon Sanderson was as good as the first four, in my opinion. I have not read the latest one, also by Sanderson, but i heard its just as good as his previous offering.

Don't expect ASOIF though, this is more juvenilve fantasy. The characters are a major weakness and the plot becomes so convoluted amongs a thousand different plot-line that its quite the mess. The best thing about WOT though is the world building, its very realized, and there's plenty of action, politics, and a preety interesting magic system.

There's better stuff to read out there, closer to GRRM's style (First Law, Gentleman Bastards, Prince of Nothing, Malazan, etc) WOT is more genre fantasy, massive in scope, heavy on the magic, but weak in characters.

[Shryke]

Grack21, on 20 July 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

I'll try and look for it. I don't remember his exact phrasing, I mean he didn;t come right out and say it was shit or anything, but I believe it was something along the lines of it was the only book he regretted writing. Take that with the required amount of salt though, since my memory doesn't work so good no more.

He regretted the format he used for it.

Basically, after people bitched endlessly about Matt not showing up in PoD, he switched styles a bit for CoT and so we got the "check in with everyone" thing that didn't cohere at all into a real book. And then afterwords he said "that didn't work well. Fuck the whiners." and wrote KoD without concern for that kind of shit.

That's as I remember it anyway.

Edited by Shryke, 20 July 2011 - 08:50 PM.

[Shryke]

Whitebeard, on 20 July 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:

First four books were very enjoyable. 5-7 were just at the 'decent' line. 8-10 were boredering unredable. 11 was 'decent' again, and 12, written by Brandon Sanderson was as good as the first four, in my opinion. I have not read the latest one, also by Sanderson, but i heard its just as good as his previous offering.

Don't expect ASOIF though, this is more juvenilve fantasy. The characters are a major weakness and the plot becomes so convoluted amongs a thousand different plot-line that its quite the mess. The best thing about WOT though is the world building, its very realized, and there's plenty of action, politics, and a preety interesting magic system.

There's better stuff to read out there, closer to GRRM's style (First Law, Gentleman Bastards, Prince of Nothing, Malazan, etc) WOT is more genre fantasy, massive in scope, heavy on the magic, but weak in characters.

It's not a mess though. If you can keep all the players straight in your head (or you take notes or whatever) it's actually extremely well plotted. It's probably the best thing about the series. It's very obviously well planned and stuff that happened 7 books ago is foreshadowing stuff that will happen right now and so on.

[Grack21]

Whitebeard, on 20 July 2011 - 08:44 PM, said:

There's better stuff to read out there, closer to GRRM's style (First Law, Gentleman Bastards, Prince of Nothing, Malazan, etc) WOT is more genre fantasy, massive in scope, heavy on the magic, but weak in characters.

I like all of those, but none of those are similar in style to ASOIAF by a long shot.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Andystoteles, on 19 July 2011 - 03:38 AM, said:

(there´s a lot of bitching about the later books but thats just some internet-cojones-groupthink thingy)

Bullshit. It's been a while, but my recollection is that you can read only the first and final chapters of CoT and not miss anything remotely important.

[fionwe1987]

Max the Mostly Mediocre, on 21 July 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Bullshit. It's been a while, but my recollection is that you can read only the first and final chapters of CoT and not miss anything remotely important.

While I disagree with the OP you were responding to, this is the kind of overblown, ludicrous criticism that ends up forcing people to defend CoT. There's no denying it is a poor book that came right at the end of the slow patch of the series. Completely irrelevant it is not!

[Andystoteles]

The Bare Hand, on 20 July 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Starting a WOT thread on this forum is never a good idea...
ETA: this is going 500 replies at least

I thought it was a splendid idea, just look how much fun people are having. Neck-tensions loosening, real world troubles melt away. But i´m "book-hipsterish", what do i know

Edited by Andystoteles, 21 July 2011 - 01:22 AM.

[Ser Duck]

I'm dipping in and out of the series on audiobook.

The Story is okay, and as previous posters have said there's great world building.  What really really grinds my gears is the repetetive use of the same phrases

Thom always 'blows out his mustaches'

Nynaeve tugs her braid

People yawn till their jaws crack

Each of the three male main protagonists would each find themselves in a socially awkward situation and wish one of the other two were there, because they know how to talk to women better. (I get that this is a joke but it happens way too often)

I'm sure you could name a few more

And even though it's on audio book I can just hear those bloody apostrophes.  I hate them (Jaqen H'ghar withstanding )

"Nothin'g sa'ys q'uality fantas'y l'ike misuse'd apos'tro'phes."
— James D. Nicoll

[nickg]

Ser Duck, on 21 July 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

I'm dipping in and out of the series on audiobook.

The Story is okay, and as previous posters have said there's great world building.  What really really grinds my gears is the repetetive use of the same phrases

Thom always 'blows out his mustaches'

Nynaeve tugs her braid

People yawn till their jaws crack

Each of the three male main protagonists would each find themselves in a socially awkward situation and wish one of the other two were there, because they know how to talk to women better. (I get that this is a joke but it happens way too often)

I'm sure you could name a few more

And even though it's on audio book I can just hear those bloody apostrophes.  I hate them (Jaqen H'ghar withstanding )

"Nothin'g sa'ys q'uality fantas'y l'ike misuse'd apos'tro'phes."
— James D. Nicoll

that is part of what bugs the hell out of me also. That and the fact that I just dont like the writing very much.

I would agree that the story is a high point. I enjoy that part quite a bit. If only the writing would stop getting in the way.