[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II

[Ches Rockwell]

Tyrion notes that the Septa has carried a child. And he thinks that she has some secrets yet to be revealed. Leaves me to wonder who is her child?

My candidates are either "Aegon" or that Sand Snake that is said to have a Septa for a mother, Tyene. What do you think?

[buttercups]

wouldn't it be wild if septa lemore was ashara dayne and tyene was her daughter? Oberyn had a penchant for taking his daughters away from their mothers. Just a thought.

[Wouter]

Tyrion notes that the Septa has carried a child. And he thinks that she has some secrets yet to be revealed. Leaves me to wonder who is her child?

My candidates are either "Aegon" or that Sand Snake that is said to have a Septa for a mother, Tyene. What do you think?

I also suspect those 2 are the most likely candidates, if the child is anyone we know.

[LadyOfStormsEnd]

I also agree that the most likely candidate is Tyene

[Whatever]

She's not tyene's mother. First, who cares about Tyene's mother? It doesn't make any sense, story wise. Second, JonCon refers to her as "LADY lemore". Third, Tyene's hair is a light shade of blonde. Since Oberyn was her father, her mother HAS to have pale-blond hair, but Lemore's hair is darker.

She's not Aegon's mother. Aegon's mother (elia) is dead. Young Griff's mother was likely illyrio's lyseni wife, also dead (and with Valyrian features).

My guess is Ashara Dayne. Not because is THAT likely, but because it's the best guess. Also, what else should be the point of that barristan's POV about Ashara's stillborn child? The child was born too early (conceived at harrenhall = born 3 months into the war) to be swapped with Aegon, or to be Jon. The child did also die too early to be the reason for Ashara's "suicide" (because she "killed herself" 9 months later, so...)

Lemore is ashara, and her child is dead

[Galen M]

She's not tyene's mother. First, who cares about Tyene's mother? It doesn't make any sense, story wise. Second, JonCon refers to her as "LADY lemore". Third, Tyene's hair is a light shade of blonde. Since Oberyn was her father, her mother HAS to have pale-blond hair, but Lemore's hair is darker.

snip

Lemore is ashara, and her child is dead

Do we really need to carry this debate into a second thread; it seems pretty hashed out here:

Calibandar and I had this exact same debate (starting with post 358).

[Angalin]

This thread has been reopened to continue discussion from the thread linked-to above. Before contributing, I suggest posters take the time to do a little reading-up.

[Angalin]

Here's a quick summary for those of you who are disinclined to re-read:

So 3 candidates for Septa Lemore are:

- Lyanna [problem: both Ned and Robert saw her dead body... and her bones are buried under Winterfell]

- Ashara Dayne [problem: Septa do not fit Ashara description. "more handsome then beauty" is definitely not "one of the most beautiful women"]

- Elia [Problem - Her dead body was given to Robert...]

Global problem:

ALL these ladies are too young to be Lemore.

Conclusion:

Facts are against all 3 theories, if one of them is truth, then informations we have are fake or misinterpreted.

Possibility 1:

It's different women, not identified yet.

Possibility 2:

It's completely new character, not mentioned in series yet.

A further possibility mentioned was that Lemore is the septa mother of one of the Sand Snakes.

[DaemonSand]

Hey guys, long time lurker and first time poster here. The mystery around Septa Lemore has really got me intrigued. I've got a crackpot hunch I'm gonna throw out there. Although I think it's highly likely that we're going to meet Ashara Dayne and possibly Tysha at some point (at least I hope we do...) I think Lemore is .......Wenda the White Fawn. I know...I know. Who? What? To my recollection Wenda was a member of the Kingswood Brotherhood who captured Merret Frey and branded him. We don't really know too much about her other than she was in the Kingswood Brotherhood with Simon and Terrence Toyne (relatives of Myles Toyne ...of the Golden Company?) Possibly a reason why she could've ended up in the free cities. Lemore talks about Aegon not being the only one who needs to hide and it seems to me that the outlaw White Fawn would have good reason to stay hidden. Also, we don't know much about her or her fate....was she killed or captured? What strikes me is that much as GRRM hinted several times throughout the earlier books (particularly ASOS and AFFC) about Jon Connington...foreshadowing his appearance in ADWD, he does the same kind of mentioning with the White Fawn. Is it possible that Varys spirited Wenda out of Westeros in exchange for her agreeing to tutor Aegon. Is it possible that she was in fact a septa before joining the Kingswood Brotherhood (sort of a female friar tuck.....) and that the white in White Fawn is actually from her septa's robes? I'm even going to take this crackpot theory one crack further and suggest that Wenda the White Fawn and Tyene's septa mother could possibly be one and the same (which could be a reason for her to have joined the Brotherhood ....disgraced septa gives birth to a bastard daughter and is forced from the faith....?) I know...I know. Pretty thin... but I just can't shake the feeling that the several mentions of the White Fawn (in Merret's chapter and I believe a Jaime chapter or chapters) were completely pointless because it feels just like the Connington foreshadowing. Thanks for listening! (Feels good to finally post!)

[corbon]

Here's a quick summary for those of you who are disinclined to re-read:

A further possibility mentioned was that Lemore is the septa mother of one of the Sand Snakes.

Point of order:

The age issue of Lemore is not the issue people make it out to be. We have only one reference relevant to Lemore's age and that is a rough internal estimate by Tyrion, based on nothing more than her look. It cannot be considered 'accurate' so his 'at least 40' could easily be 35-50. That actually puts even Lyanna, whom we would believe to be the youngest of the three candidates 'disqualified' around the lower limit of fitting age-wise to Lemore.

This is also the same Tyrion who mis-guessed Jon's age by several years.

Further, we don't actually know the ages of either Elia (I think) or Ashara. A best guess for Elia would be mid forties by now, and Ashara around 40, give or take a few years. Both of these fit within reasonable parameters of Tyrions uneducated guess. Lets face it, Tyrions' judgement of naked women is basically teen girls and prostitutes. Teen girls aren't relevant and prostitutes are usually also younger.

Having said that, Elia's and Lyanna's deaths are well attested to by people who knew than and saw their bodies. So it is extremely unlikely, verging impossible, that either of them are candidates.

Summary:

Ashara:

+ estimated age (36-40) within rough range (35-50)

+ swimmer vs 'suicided by diving into the sea (no body)'

+ same hair colour

+ already connected to Aegon (Ashara was Elia's handmaid)

+ stretch marks vs Ashara's stillborn daughter

+ knew (at least danced with and was at court with) Jon Connington

+ nobility

+ Septa training is likely typical for a 'dishonoured' noblewoman (it was in our real world similar cultures)

+ Ashara is described as 'fair' (meaning attractive since she had dark brown hair) not stunningly beautiful. This actually fits well with and older woman described as 'handsome'. Barristan, in love with Ashara, notes that compared to Ashara Elia was drab (or something to that effect), which does not require great beauty, just attractive and vivacious vs ordinary and weak/sick most of the time

+ a clear reason to hide her identity (the reappearance of famous suicide Ashara who was Elia's handmaid would immediately create intense interest in Aegon)

+ purple eyes could give cover initially as baby Aegon's natural mother

+ Ashara appears to have been vivacious and have X-factor. So does Lemore.

+ Ashara is already significant in the back-story, so this would be a significant reveal.

? mysterious non-description of eyes by Tyrion (he was looking a little lower at the time)

- Ashara's eyes were 'laughing/dancing/haunting', clearly a significant feature, yet (nearly 20 years later) Tyrion does not notice Septa Lemore's eyes.

- nearly 20 years later, Ashara's 'fair' and ''puts Elia to shame for looks'' is not matched by Lemore's 'handsome' :rolleyes:

- If Tyrion is correct and Lemore is over 40, Ashara needed to be around 22+ and unmarried while dancing with the most eligible young men (and her brother) in their early 20s at Harrenhal. No, on no evidence at all she must have been younger than that so can't possibly fit. :rolleyes:

- Ashara's dead, everyone knows it even though they explicitly never found a body. :rolleyes:

Lyanna:

- err, we saw her die in Ned's arms. Also on the really low edge age-wise, as if it matters.

Elia:

- murdered in the sack of KL, and not reported as disfigured or anything to make identification difficult

Tyene Sand's mother:

+ was a septa

+ known to have had a baby, now grown up and elsewhere

? close to nobility, though not actually noble

- would require 2 dark hair parents (Oberyn+Lemore) = blonde hair baby (Tyene) (not impossible)

- has no decent reason yet postulated why she would need to hide her identity

- no known connection to Connington or the Targaryens

- what would be the importance or interest in such a reveal?

A new minor character

- apparent need to hide identity, why?

- why did Tyrion not note the eyes as he usually does

+ why not, this board is famous for seeing twists and turns where only hints of such exist

A new major character

- really, now? Someone we've never heard of?

I've probably missed a few clues in the above list but I think I have most of them.

Many are disputable - for example, it is not conclusive that Lemore thinks she must keep her own identity hidden - she could be talking about a third party (like Aegon) to Griff. But it seems that she is, so it goes in as a potential clue.

[lezboyd]

I am sticking to my theory in the earlier, now locked, thread that Lemore is one of Littlefinger's spies. Again, this is based more on clues in the TV series rather than the books.

[Zar Lannister]

Lemore does seem to be around the same age as Ellia; Ashara and Lyanna a bit on the young side. But who knows? Tyrion could have made a bit of a mistake on his age appraisal, maybe Lemore had a rough life. Also, Lyanna would have worshipped the Old Gods, so making her a Septa would make no sense.

[Malkan]

I think (and hope) is not Ashara, because it would be to many faked death people, baby aegon and griff already did that, add Ashara the old love of Barristan and this is looking like a latin america soup opera, "cancion de hielo y fuego, historias de pasion"

[Tom Sawyer]

She's either Ashara or she's nobody. All the other people she could be are just too irrelevant and not worth hiding her identity.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Lyanna:

- err, we saw her die in Ned's arms. Also on the really low edge age-wise, as if it matters.

While I agree with you, Martin has said that we shouldn’t take the event portrayed in Ned’s fever dream of the Tower of Joy to all be exactly correct and literal. I think that means there’s more that happened there than we know about, or that some of the things it showed were symbolic not literal.

[Arthanis]

If it is Ashara:

- She COULD be alive, because all behind her death is mysterious (+no body)

- She mysteriously became old-looking, and major part of her beauty disappeared (possible, but need good explain)

- Tyrion talking of her eyes would make her personality too obvious to us, Martin's decision is explainable

- I still see no good reason behind her "fake suicide". NOTHING is book show us her as possible part of any major plan, everything is just speculation.

- On top of that her suicide happen AFTER Targaryens slaughter. Too late to change the history...

- She could just leave Westeros for any reason (like "my lovely bother is dead and I was dishonored, I don't want to live here anymore"), "fake suicide" was not needed.

- She has no known reason to work for Targs/Golden company/Varys/Illyrio, all theories are just specualtion with no single real motive behind it

Lyanna:

- Ned was not only one man who have seen her dead, Robert was at her body for few hours... Do you think Robert was part of "lets move Lyanna to free cities" plan? ;)

[Whatever]

Lyanna:

- Ned was not only one man who have seen her dead, Robert was at her body for few hours... Do you think Robert was part of "lets move Lyanna to free cities" plan? ;) /

[lezboyd]

I find it difficult to accept the Lemore = Ashara (or Lyanna) theories because Lemore is described as more handsome than beautiful. While we may split hairs over her not having aged gracefully or Ashara never being described as beautiful, only pretty, handsome is still far from pretty.

[Galen M]

I find it difficult to accept the Lemore = Ashara (or Lyanna) theories because Lemore is described as more handsome than beautiful. While we may split hairs over her not having aged gracefully or Ashara never being described as beautiful, only pretty, handsome is still far from pretty.

where's dragonfish when you need a drinking game invented?

Suffice it to say, this idea has been mentioned (and refuted) at least 3 separate times in the original thread.

[Zar Lannister]

I find it difficult to accept the Lemore = Ashara (or Lyanna) theories because Lemore is described as more handsome than beautiful. While we may split hairs over her not having aged gracefully or Ashara never being described as beautiful, only pretty, handsome is still far from pretty.

Some people said the Same thing about Lyanna... didn't they? At least if I'm not mistaken Arya is said to posess a similar beauty to Lyanna's... a kind of "wild beauty".