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[ADWD SPOILERS] "Septa" Lemore, part II


Ches Rockwell

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I think that she is waiting for the right time. Possibly once Aegon is almost ready to claim the throne she will step forward to reveal herself to verify his claim. Maybe she is afraid that if she reveals herself too soon that there might be repercussions for her family should Aegon's campaign not go to plan.

Okay, I'm probably missing something - but how exactly does Ashara revealing herself help Aegon and his claim? He thinks he is Rhaegar and Elia's son, as does Jon Connington. As far as the world knows, Ashara Dayne was a handmaiden to Elia who had a bastard stillborn daughter and then killed herself. Wouldn't her sudden resurrection alongside Aegon (we thought he was dead!) Targaryen and Jon (we thought he was dead too!) Connington make a hinky situation even hinkier?

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Okay, I'm probably missing something - but how exactly does Ashara revealing herself help Aegon and his claim? He thinks he is Rhaegar and Elia's son, as does Jon Connington. As far as the world knows, Ashara Dayne was a handmaiden to Elia who had a bastard stillborn daughter and then killed herself. Wouldn't her sudden resurrection alongside Aegon (we thought he was dead!) Targaryen and Jon (we thought he was dead too!) Connington make a hinky situation even hinkier?

Yeah, I admit it is pretty hinky - a presumed dead lord and a presumed dead lady vouching for a presumed dead prince. But at least no one is looking for Jon and Ashara, people think that they are dead. However both were adults when they 'died' so people who knew them would still recognised them. And who better to vouch for Elia and Rhaegar's son than Elia and Rhaegar's good friends?

And from Illyrio and Varys's perspective, both Jon and Ashara were emotionally vulnerable - Jon because of losing the Battle of the Bells and because of Rhaegar's death, and Ashara because of the (alleged) stillborn baby and the deaths of her brother and Elia and Rhaegar. I can imagine Varys recruiting Ashara "So very sorry to hear of the loss of your sweet baby my lady. No never fear, I won't tell anyone. Perhaps you can do me a little favour? I have another little baby who needs you. The son of your dear friend. Elia would have wanted it this way and the shame of your own dead baby...perhaps it would be for the best if you go away and look after Aegon"

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There is actually a place where Tyrion explicitly thinks he is not interested in her secrets, or something like that. I remember finding it on a reread after having a similar argument months, or even a year or so ago now.

Huh, don't remember that; but if that's the case, then I stand corrected. I always just assumed since it was Tyrion's inquisitive nature, that he would eventually focus in Lemore...

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Okay, I'm probably missing something - but how exactly does Ashara revealing herself help Aegon and his claim? He thinks he is Rhaegar and Elia's son, as does Jon Connington. As far as the world knows, Ashara Dayne was a handmaiden to Elia who had a bastard stillborn daughter and then killed herself. Wouldn't her sudden resurrection alongside Aegon (we thought he was dead!) Targaryen and Jon (we thought he was dead too!) Connington make a hinky situation even hinkier?

Ashara Dayne was only a Handmaid who may have been dismissed in dishonour, but she was still an intimate of Elia, and, perhaps more importantly, her brother was Rhaegar's closest friend and bodyguard, legendary for his honour as well as skill. And the Daynes are a vastly storied House rich in honour and history - more so than most great houses.

And she was an adult at court, whom many people will have personally known, even if a long time ago.

If she comes out and people recognise her or her family confirm her identity it would be very hard to dismiss her claims.

JonCon is a bit more hinky on his own, though plenty of people would know him well and his identity would have little real question. But he doesn't really carry much weight in the whole Aegon story.

The two of them together however...

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I've read the book three times. Never got the hint she was ashara. I think she's a mysterious character. But none of the jon connington chapters made me think of her as ashara and that's where I really expected the most clues to be. So he must still be in the dark. Or purposefully hiding it from. Himself...which is strange. She was my first guess then tynes mother. Then wylla. But I'm not convinced of any of those yet I think the winds of winter will at least point one out among the others. A shady dark haired woman. Disguised as a septa. And her age is a mystery since we know tyrion is terrible at distinguishing ages. And yes he explicitly says he doesn't need to walk that path at. Figuring out her past. But that's why I wonder how important she is, if she is really ashara she could have a say in aegon's legitmacy as if she helped rescue him and hide him for varys. Maybe they are both fakes. Or one is real who can say its really just a mystery to me.

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Ah, okay - I get it now. Ashara (and Jon) would be brought in to vouch for Aegon the way Theon was brought in to vouch for and identify "Arya". That makes sense. I think I was caught up in the idea that Ashara was going to reveal herself as Aegon's true mother (assuming there was a R+E stillborn daughter switcheroo with an X (R?) + A living son). Thank you for reeling me back in. ("Go towards the light, hws....go towards the light!)

Carry on :drunk:

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Ah, okay - I get it now. Ashara (and Jon) would be brought in to vouch for Aegon the way Theon was brought in to vouch for and identify "Arya". That makes sense. I think I was caught up in the idea that Ashara was going to reveal herself as Aegon's true mother (assuming there was a R+E stillborn daughter switcheroo with an X (R?) + A living son). Thank you for reeling me back in. ("Go towards the light, hws....go towards the light!)

Carry on :drunk:

The really clever thing is that neither of them are are true witness - both almost certainly (JonCon definitely) have 'custody gaps' where another baby could have been switched in and they wouldn't necessarily know. Ashara may have never actually met Aegon at all, even!

But with the level of sophistication of the typical noble audience they have to convince (at least well enough to make allow those who have other reasons to back Aegon to do so), it doesn't actually matter who verifiable their claims are and the gaps. Only who they are and what they believe matters for the most part.

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I've read the book three times. Never got the hint she was ashara. I think she's a mysterious character. But none of the jon connington chapters made me think of her as ashara and that's where I really expected the most clues to be. So he must still be in the dark. Or purposefully hiding it from. Himself...which is strange. She was my first guess then tynes mother. Then wylla. But I'm not convinced of any of those yet I think the winds of winter will at least point one out among the others. A shady dark haired woman. Disguised as a septa. And her age is a mystery since we know tyrion is terrible at distinguishing ages. And yes he explicitly says he doesn't need to walk that path at. Figuring out her past. But that's why I wonder how important she is, if she is really ashara she could have a say in aegon's legitmacy as if she helped rescue him and hide him for varys. Maybe they are both fakes. Or one is real who can say its really just a mystery to me.

One reason it is difficult to get the hints is that at the time we meet Lemore, our image of Ashara is very different.

A fair-haired (she is described as 'fair' and the Daynes are noted for often having Targ-like silver hair) young noble woman with purple eyes who never actually had a baby (N+A=J is a red herring) and died nearly 20 years ago is what was commonly believed before ADwD (though many [ETA: readers} were suspect about the death).

What we see initially with Lemore is a dark haired common older women who had a baby. Could hardly be much different from Ashara.

Only much later in the book do we get hints that Lemore is actually a westerosi noblewoman, and Ashara had dark hair and a stillborn baby.

Also, its really a stretch to expect Tyrion to think about, even know of, all the possible minor footnotes in history that might have Aegon connections.

Seriously, Ashara Dayne is a nothing to westeros. She's huge for us, and if she returns with Aegon, she'll be huge then, but before that its doubtful if many people outside her family remember who she was at all. "Just some disgraced southern girl... didn't she bear Stark's bastard? Say, wasn't her brother the Sword of the Morning? Now there was a Knight! ..."

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Ah, okay - I get it now. Ashara (and Jon) would be brought in to vouch for Aegon the way Theon was brought in to vouch for and identify "Arya". That makes sense. I think I was caught up in the idea that Ashara was going to reveal herself as Aegon's true mother (assuming there was a R+E stillborn daughter switcheroo with an X (R?) + A living son). Thank you for reeling me back in. ("Go towards the light, hws....go towards the light!)

Carry on :drunk:

I think that is the end game with Daenerys. ;)
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One reason it is difficult to get the hints is that at the time we meet Lemore, our image of Ashara is very different.

A fair-haired (she is described as 'fair' and the Daynes are noted for often having Targ-like silver hair) young noble woman with purple eyes who never actually had a baby (N+A=J is a red herring) and died nearly 20 years ago is what was commonly believed before ADwD (though many were suspect about the death).

Ashara is described with dark hair and laughing purple eyes, she had a fair complexion. Ser Barristan recalls her having a stillborn daughter, but I doubt that he was present or even nearby at the time, so this may be rumor. Actually, everyone suspected that Ashara was despondent and threw herself from the Palestone Sword (tower in Starfall) to commit suicide. The search for her body found nothing, and no one thought that she may have faked her suicide, book closed.

What we see initially with Lemore is a dark haired common older women who had a baby. Could hardly be much different from Ashara.

Only much later in the book do we get hints that Lemore is actually a westerosi noblewoman, and Ashara had dark hair and a stillborn baby.

Also, its really a stretch to expect Tyrion to think about, even know of, all the possible minor footnotes in history that might have Aegon connections.

Seriously, Ashara Dayne is a nothing to westeros. She's huge for us, and if she returns with Aegon, she'll be huge then, but before that its doubtful if many people outside her family remember who she was at all. "Just some disgraced southern girl... didn't she bear Stark's bastard? Say, wasn't her brother the Sword of the Morning? Now there was a Knight! ..."

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Ashara is described with dark hair and laughing purple eyes, she had a fair complexion. Ser Barristan recalls her having a stillborn daughter, but I doubt that he was present or even nearby at the time, so this may be rumor. Actually, everyone suspected that Ashara was despondent and threw herself from the Palestone Sword (tower in Starfall) to commit suicide. The search for her body found nothing, and no one thought that she may have faked her suicide, book closed.

Prior to ADWD Ashara was described as fair. Most of us presumed that fair meant fair-haired as the Daynes are known for having blonde hair. It wasn't until towards the end of ADWD (long after we had met the dark haired Lemore) that it was revealed that Ashara actually had dark hair.

I believe that Corbon meant that many of us (the readers) suspected that Ashara wasn't really dead, not the people of Westeros, they pretty much all do believe that she is dead.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Septa Lemore is Elia - handsome, of the right age and had children. Doran Martell uses the "double" trick a lot so only Rhaegar (presumed dead) and her immediate family and friends would be SURE what Elia was like. I suggest that the fake "elia" perhaps was a relative of Dark star, hence the hatred for Myrcella.

Aegon is who he thinks he is - BUT I j have a suspicion that Harrenhall was a bit of an orgy with people sleeping with others all over the place - like an old fashioned May day. Harrenhall the seat of the first men, falso spring etc- fertility festival screams out at me

Try this. Rhaegar becomes besotted with Lyannna. Elia is very upset. Along comes another (Brandon) or even young Benjen) or who "comforts" with Elia. This is what really sparks the rebellion.

Meanwhile Aerys "dishonours" Ashara also setting Stark against Targ because Ned loves Ashara.

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Septa Lemore is Elia - handsome, of the right age and had children. Doran Martell uses the "double" trick a lot so only Rhaegar (presumed dead) and her immediate family and friends would be SURE what Elia was like. I suggest that the fake "elia" perhaps was a relative of Dark star, hence the hatred for Myrcella.

Aegon is who he thinks he is - BUT I j have a suspicion that Harrenhall was a bit of an orgy with people sleeping with others all over the place - like an old fashioned May day. Harrenhall the seat of the first men, falso spring etc- fertility festival screams out at me

Try this. Rhaegar becomes besotted with Lyannna. Elia is very upset. Along comes another (Brandon) or even young Benjen) or who "comforts" with Elia. This is what really sparks the rebellion.

Meanwhile Aerys "dishonours" Ashara also setting Stark against Targ because Ned loves Ashara.

When has Doran used a double for anyone? I honestly can't think of a single example. Plus there's the fact that literally every person in the red keep would know exactly what Elia looked like. Every servant, every knight, every lord.

The tourney at Harrenhal was what, like 20 years tops before AGoT? I think if tourneys were doubling as fertility festivals that recently we'd know about it. We've also had POVs of multiple attendees who don't mention anything of the sort. Do you really think Ned or Barristan would participate in something like that when they were both too shy to even approach ashara?

Are you also suggesting a Stark is the father of Aegon? When would either have had a chance to do so?

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CG

orgy may be a bit strong, but it was a false spring "Young man's fancy etc) when the kids (remember they are all just 15-22) meet with strong jocks (knights) and pretty girls. Like teenagers today. Especially if the Septas guarding the girls had feasted a little too much

yes i am suggesting a stark is aegon's dad

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  • 1 year later...

Tyene's mother is living in the Reach, Arianne mentioned that they visited her and she HAS to have blond hair because Oberyn is a brunette.


I do think that she's mysterious and has some secrets but I don't think she's Ashara Dayne or Elia or Lyanna.


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Well, I'm in the Ashara's camp.

But I wanted to point out that Tyene's mother would NOT be a dull reveal, but underline an Oberyn (and so dornish) connection with baby Aegon, even if non Doran including.

Bye!

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  • 10 months later...

I find it difficult to accept the Lemore = Ashara (or Lyanna) theories because Lemore is described as more handsome than beautiful. While we may split hairs over her not having aged gracefully or Ashara never being described as beautiful, only pretty, handsome is still far from pretty.

I used to feel the exact same way, BUT.... not anymore. After re-reading the books and alternative insight amongst several other threads, I've decided that "handsome" could very well be a term used to describe an older woman who may have been considered pretty or "beautiful" in her younger years. Though cliche - beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder AND realistically, women really do age differently.... period. Also, GRRM himself warns that descriptions from POV characters can't always be relied upon.

Soooo.... if we're using only appearance as a gauge to determine whether Septa (Lady) Lemore = Ashara Dayne - then I would say the possibility is "YES".... since the consensus seems to be, generally speaking, both women are considered "attractive".

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