King_In_The_North Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Last we've seen them, they were sent from Seagard by Robb to head towards Greywater Watch. They also have Robb's letter, containing the details on whom he wishes would be his succesor. Where are they, and how will they be important in TWOW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Wind Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 They are presumably still at Greywater Watch. My guess is that with the events at the Red Wedding, the presence of the Ironborn at Moat Cailin and in the north and the Stony shore, Glover and the Lady Maege (or one of them if the other has died) are in a holding pattern. Not sure they can make it out safely and not sure where to go even if they could. The matter of destination is clearly easier for the Lady MAege than it is for Glover. Until ADwD, Deepwood Motte was occupied by Asha. Bear Island has always been free up to this point -- though getting there safely with the Ironborn at sea is a practical problem.Putting that aside, the letter is more than a "letter". It has the potential to change everything in the North and to set Jon and Stannis at odds. The "letter" is the Last Will and Testament of King Robb. It is a plot device that will threaten to upset the entire board of pieces when it emerges -- if Jon is alive at that time, that is.Please understand that Robb's Will names Jon a trueborn Stark and makes him King in the North and of the Riverlands. Yes, it makes him King over the claims of Bran and Rickon, even if they are found to be alive. Jon is not named the heir of King Robb as a cousin over Lord Eddard's other sons; rather, Jon is named a trueborn Stark and son of Eddard who is then the eldest of Eddard's surviving sons. The crown of the North is, therefore, his and his alone, no matter whether Rickon or Bran are subsequently found to be alive. It is not a matter of whether Jon is or isn't King -- he IS King under Robb's Will. Moreover, it was signed and sealed by all of Robb's Lords Bannerman -- Roose Bolton included. They obviously all believed that Jon could put aside his vows to the Watch, so that debate as a legal matter is concluded before it even begins. So, when that letter comes out, it will definitely have a profound effect on the political climate in the North. Stannis wanted a Jon Stark as Lord of Winterfell, beholden to King Stannis. Robb's letter has a very different effect: it rejects Stannis and names Jon Stark to be King in the North, beholden to nobody.When the letter emerges, Stannis will have to make a choice. Given his predisposution, we know what he will do. Unless Jon bends the knee, Stannis will declae Jon a traitor and his life forfeit. Problem for Stannis is, he has few men and Jon has the loyalty of the wildlings and, presumably, most of the Northmen.What Melisandre will do will depend at what stage Robb's Will emerges. I don't see how Stannis survives his own pigheadedness. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyDK Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I was disappointed to have not heard anything at all about this in a ADWD. So hopefully we'll hear something in WOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 StuffTrue. On the other hand Jon's very first act as King in the North could be to bend the knee to Stannis and be named Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. There's no reason it needs to set them apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm surprised that Chekov's letter didn't show up in ADWD in order to make life more miserable for Jon. Perhaps, he actually ends up taking Robb up on the offer after his resurrection and Mel deciding he's the Azor Ahai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel_Wind Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm surprised that Chekov's letter didn't show up in ADWD in order to make life more miserable for Jon. Perhaps, he actually ends up taking Robb up on the offer after his resurrection and Mel deciding he's the Azor Ahai.It's not an "offer". Jon is King. There is no "offer and acceptance" aspect to the Will. The terms of the Will release Jon from the vows of the Night's Watch itself and makes it legal for him to be King by royal decree, consent to by every Lord in the North except for the Lord of Karhold. In terms of the effect it will have on Jon's life, this is the "nuclear option". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fybonacci Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Naaah, Jon loves his siblings. He has sworn a vow and is determined to adhere to it (admittedly in his own interesting fashion). He will not go to war with the Stark kids, and he will not deny them their inheritance, even if he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chirios Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Which begs an interesting question: Why is Lord Manderly looking for Rickon when he knows that there already is a trueborn Stark at the Wall? The letter names Jon trueborn, therefore Jon is trueborn, and the King according to Robb's will. Perhaps he feels that the North might hesitate to kneel to a Night's Watchman, since they place such high value on vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_In_The_North Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Which begs an interesting question: Why is Lord Manderly looking for Rickon when he knows that there already is a trueborn Stark at the Wall? The letter names Jon trueborn, therefore Jon is trueborn, and the King according to Robb's will. Perhaps he feels that the North might hesitate to kneel to a Night's Watchman, since they place such high value on vows.I think Wylas was there to sign the letter, but not quite sure if he told his father about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It's not an "offer". Jon is King. There is no "offer and acceptance" aspect to the Will. The terms of the Will release Jon from the vows of the Night's Watch itself and makes it legal for him to be King by royal decree, consent to by every Lord in the North except for the Lord of Karhold. In terms of the effect it will have on Jon's life, this is the "nuclear option".Don't know.I think it may turn out to be a Red Herring. What is the value of the will of a King of a non-existent Kingdom? Sure lots of Lords witnessed it, but that was before the Red Wedding. The political landscape has totally changed. How many of those Lords are currently dead or imprisoned? How many, even if released, will have the stomach to attempt to enforce it, particularly if Manderly produces Rickon Stark and if Jon is no longer the bastard son of Eddard and Lord commander of the Night's Watch but Jon the betrayed and Jon the Wildling's friend?It has the potential to add to the chaos in the North. And chaos in the North is what I expect to see in TWOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JalenTigh Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Not that I think he is really dead... but IF Jon really is dead, just watch... They will ride up with the letter for him the very next day... Thats the kinda irony I have come to expect from GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It's not an "offer". Jon is King. There is no "offer and acceptance" aspect to the Will. The terms of the Will release Jon from the vows of the Night's Watch itself and makes it legal for him to be King by royal decree, consent to by every Lord in the North except for the Lord of Karhold. In terms of the effect it will have on Jon's life, this is the "nuclear option".Jon Snow: My brother Robb was never a king. Lord Robb did not have the authority to release me from my vows.Stannis: Yep. We're good.End of argument.Robb's acts as a king are ONLY valid if one accepts he was a king. If Jon and the lords of the North recant of the vile treason that Robb was ever a king, then by law he wasn't. None of his decrees mean diddly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antillean Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It's not an "offer". Jon is King. There is no "offer and acceptance" aspect to the Will. The terms of the Will release Jon from the vows of the Night's Watch itself and makes it legal for him to be King by royal decree, consent to by every Lord in the North except for the Lord of Karhold.Where are you getting this from? The relevant dialogue in the second to last Catelyn chapter in A Storm of Swords reads:"Jon is a brother of the Night's Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life." [- Catelyn]"So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If i send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows."He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. "A bastard cannot inherit.""Not unless he's legitimised by a royal decree," said Robb. "There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath."As I understand it, the Will either 1) legitimises Jon as a trueborn son of Eddard Stark, or 2) names Jon as Robb's heir without legitimising him. (Presumably it does the first, perhaps with the qualification that it only happen in the event that Robb dies without issue or something like that...otherwise, since Jon is older than Robb, wouldn't Robb be making Jon King in the North ahead of himself while he's alive?)From the way Robb talks of sending the Watch a hundred men and them finding a way to release him from his vows, it's clear that Rob thinks that him legitimising Jon or naming Jon as his heir in some other way would not automatically free Jon from his vows to the Night's Watch.So yeah, I think that part of the letter can change A LOT if Jon decides to try to get himself released of his vows to the Night's Watch, but I really don't see that happening. The only other way I can see it having a huge impact is if it somehow allows for an anomalous arrangement whereby Jon, though not Lord of Winterfell or King in the North and of the Trident because of his vows to the Watch, still commands respect from the lords of the North. But that also seems rather unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antillean Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Oh wait, scrap that bit about Jon being older than Robb. We don't know that, right? And even if we do, everyone (except perhaps Howland Reed) thinks Robb is older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Jon Snow: My brother Robb was never a king. Lord Robb did not have the authority to release me from my vows.Stannis: Yep. We're good.End of argument.Robb's acts as a king are ONLY valid if one accepts he was a king. If Jon and the lords of the North recant of the vile treason that Robb was ever a king, then by law he wasn't. None of his decrees mean diddly.Exactly.I agree with this. The letter makes Jon a King only to those who recognize Robb as a rightful King of the NorthHe is not a King to Stannnis and his people, nor to Tommen nor anyone else but Robb's followers. To Stannis Robb is usurper and any legitimation is not binding and is unlawful therefore in his eyes Jon is not a King. Stannis would consider Jon a traitor only if Jon accepts the title as King. He will never accept it if he knows that his brothers are alive.And we do not know the wording of the letter, we don't even know if the letter names Jon as Robb's heir (though it's almost painfully obvious it must be Jon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JalenTigh Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Oh wait, scrap that bit about Jon being older than Robb. We don't know that, right? And even if we do, everyone (except perhaps Howland Reed) thinks Robb is older.I have always assumed Robb was slightly older just by the sequence of pregnancy. If Cat got knocked up before Ned left for war, and it was while Ned was gone that he got Jon's mother knocked up, then Robb was probably born atleast a few months before Jon. I doubt Ned jumped into the bed of another woman until he had already been gone from Winterfell for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raventhal Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I don't think it will matter since Bran and Rickon are still alive. I really don't think the NW will be a obstacle for Jon since I think they're done and the wall will be mostly abandoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George RR Martin Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yeah, Jon will become king because dead Robb said so, just like Ned is now Lord Protector because King Robert willed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tozka Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (Presumably it does the first, perhaps with the qualification that it only happen in the event that Robb dies without issue or something like that...otherwise, since Jon is older than Robb, wouldn't Robb be making Jon King in the North ahead of himself while he's alive?)That is not an issue because legitimizing places those in the line of succession after the trueborn children (Aegon IV the Unworthy who legitimized his bastards - they were placed after the trueborn children of Aegon).Of course the world believes that Robb is the older (and me with the world, I believe that Robb is older even if R+L=J) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antillean Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I have always assumed Robb was slightly older just by the sequence of pregnancy. If Cat got knocked up before Ned left for war, and it was while Ned was gone that he got Jon's mother knocked up, then Robb was probably born atleast a few months before Jon. I doubt Ned jumped into the bed of another woman until he had already been gone from Winterfell for awhile.You're right as far as the sequence of events as the books gives them goes, which is why everyone (save perhaps Howland Reed) thinks that Robb is older than Jon. I'm going on R + L = J, but the statement there that Jon is older than Robb depends on an email from Martin, not from stuff in the books.But yeh, scrap the bit about Jon being older than Robb. The stuff about Jon and the Watch probably having to consent to anything in Robb's Will -- assuming that they recognise Robb as a valid King at the time he issued it -- still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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