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[ADwD Spoilers] Meera and Jojen cliffhanger?


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#21 Dragons Dancing

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:54 PM

That may be the solution to Winterfell's rule at the series' end. Young Rickon rules the north effectively because he gets advice from his older brother Bran via weirwood/crows.


Bran does not have to be where he currently is in order to warg into a weirwood or into birds, wolves, humans. He didn't know how to warg into a weirwood until Bloodraven explained it to him. He didn't know how to warg into crows until he was shown. When he is done training he can go anywhere in his own body with his paralized legs and warg at will. He is not fated to live in a weirwood tree.

#22 Dragons Dancing

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:59 PM

Sorry for getting off topic with Bran but his abilities will likely be important to the Meera/Jojen story.

Hard for me to believe that Meera/Jojen will just be sidelined into wandering the tunnels under the tree for possibly years. They will either die or Bloodraven has a plan for them. Being able to dream green dreams is rare. We also don't know what their connection is to Howland Reed. Is he their father? Howland Reed would not want to lose Jojen as a grren dreamer. I think we can expect more than death for them but have no idea what.

#23 starkloyalist

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:10 AM

Whoa, I missed this whole "Bran eating Jojen" theory. Beside the weirwood potion looking like it has blood in it and Jojen being generally gloomy in the cave, what is the evidence to support it?

#24 Ygritte

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:12 AM

Whoa, I missed this whole "Bran eating Jojen" theory. Beside the weirwood potion looking like it has blood in it and Jojen being generally gloomy in the cave, what is the evidence to support it?


Yeah, weirwood sap is already blood-red...

#25 DaNmarner

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:14 AM

he wouldn't need to leave the weirwoods to be lord of Winterfell. For one, Winterfell has a weirwood, and for another thing, he could rule in the skins of a series of crows (since crows can talk). I somewhat doubt that this will happen (it just seems too fantastic for ASoIaF), but it could.


Oh I think part of what u said has already happened in the ADWD. Why do u think Mormont's raven called out "Jon Snow"?

#26 MinotaurWarrior

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:14 AM

^ That hardly counts as ruling.

Whoa, I missed this whole "Bran eating Jojen" theory. Beside the weirwood potion looking like it has blood in it and Jojen being generally gloomy in the cave, what is the evidence to support it?

There is none. Imho, you were better off when you hadn't heard of this theory.

Edited by MinotaurWarrior, 22 July 2011 - 12:15 AM.


#27 Tb0ne

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:28 AM

that's an awfully optimistic view, sir.

seems far more likely that because of the fact that Bran is getting the same chair/training that Bloodraven has, that Bloodraven is nearing the end of his life, and that Bran is crippled, there's very little chance Bran leaves that cave ever again... when he's not skinchanging, that is.


When Bloodraven said he had been watching Bran for his entire life I thought I might need to reread the chapter in which Bran is dropped again... from what I recall Bran was drawn to that spot because he wanted to feed ravens/crows.

"A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.
The red priestess shuddered.
Melisandre pg 408.

My impression is Bran/Meera/Jojen/BranWargingHordor will discover that Bran is staying in the cave whether he likes it or not. Jojen will die attempting to free Bran or as they flee south.

Edited by Tb0ne, 22 July 2011 - 12:30 AM.


#28 MinotaurWarrior

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:36 AM

When Bloodraven said he had been watching Bran for his entire life I thought I might need to reread the chapter in which Bran is dropped again... from what I recall Bran was drawn to that spot because he wanted to feed ravens/crows.

Not every raven is Bloodraven, but still, HFS WTF OMG By Odin's Eye!

#29 haLobEnder

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:37 AM

Hard for me to believe that Meera/Jojen will just be sidelined into wandering the tunnels under the tree for possibly years. They will either die or Bloodraven has a plan for them. Being able to dream green dreams is rare. We also don't know what their connection is to Howland Reed. Is he their father? Howland Reed would not want to lose Jojen as a grren dreamer. I think we can expect more than death for them but have no idea what.


Pretty sure there's no question as to whether or not Howland Reed is their father.


The Reed's fate didn't end on a cliffhanger, they're still alive for the time being. Meera's tears are because she knows that Jojen's (and possibly her own) life will soon be coming to an end. I highly doubt they'll be unceremoniously killed off panel; Martin's been building up to the 'today is the day I die line' since the Reed's were introduced.

Edited by halO bendeR, 22 July 2011 - 12:40 AM.


#30 Ygritte

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:39 AM

Not every raven is Bloodraven, but still, HFS WTF OMG By Odin's Eye!


Hmm, and in our world, the very name Bran means "raven." /devil.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':devil:' />

#31 Aelinor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:43 AM

Nah, looking it over he just wanted to go there because he wouldn't be able to for a long time, as he would be leaving soon for KL. Summer, however, does try to stop him and he doesn't listen. Seriously, if the Stark kids would only pay attention to their wolves...

#32 Wh0resbane

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:50 AM

Well if its any consolation I myself was blissfully unaware that the sap may be blood until I finished Dance and came on to the board. The theme of cannibalism throughout the book gives credence to this theory & Jojen saying that Bran is "not the one who has to be afraid /shocked.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':shocked:' /> ".


/lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> you amuse me


Meera is just in the story cus hes Bran's love. Which is why she will die horridly before Bran's eyes.

#33 Tb0ne

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:57 AM

Nah, looking it over he just wanted to go there because he wouldn't be able to for a long time, as he would be leaving soon for KL. Summer, however, does try to stop him and he doesn't listen. Seriously, if the Stark kids would only pay attention to their wolves...


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Bran say/think that he liked that spot because he got to feed crows/ravens there?

#34 Aelinor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:03 AM

It says only he and the crows get up that high but doesn't say explicitly that he likes to go up there because of the crows

#35 Aelinor

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:12 AM

Ha okay found it: "There were crows’ nests atop the broken tower, where no one ever went but him, and sometimes he filled his pockets with corn before he climbed up there and the crows ate it right out of his hand. None of them had ever shown the slightest bit of interest in pecking out his eyes."

Doesn't say he did that this time, though

#36 Dragons Dancing

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:14 AM

Some information about Bloodraven.

Brynden Rivers
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Brynden Rivers

Alias: Bloodraven
Title: Hand of the King,
Lord Commander of the Night's Watch

Allegiance: House Targaryen

Place of birth: Riverlands

Date of birth: 175 AL [1]

Book(s): The Sworn Sword
The Mystery Knight
A Feast for Crows

Coat of Arms:

Lord Brynden Rivers, called "Bloodraven", was a legitimized Great Bastard of Aegon IV and Mylessa Blackwood, his sixth mistress. His personal arms were a white dragon with red eyes breathing red flame on a black field. During his life he was a Targaryen loyalist during the Blackfyre Rebellion, the Hand of Aerys I, and Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.[2] Shiera Seastar, another bastard of Aegon IV, was his mistress.
An albino, Brynden had milk white skin, long white hair, and red eyes. He had a red birthmark that extended from his throat up to his right cheek. Some thought that it resembled a bird.[3] Brynden was not as tall or muscular as his half-brothers. He typically wore the colors of "blood and smoke", with smoke being a dark grey that was mottled and streaked with black. Because his skin was sensitive to light, he usually went about cloaked and hooded. He lost an eye during the Blackfyre Rebellion and rarely covered the empty socket with a patch. He wore his white hair straight and to his shoulders, with the front brushed forward to cover his missing eye.[4]

A strong warrior, Brynden carried the Valyrian steel sword Dark Sister, but he preferred his weirwood longbow and was an expert archer. During the Blackfyre Rebellion, Brynden remained loyal to Daeron II and commanded a group of longbowmen called the Raven's Teeth. At the Battle of the Redgrass Field he lost an eye fighting his half-brother, Aegor Rivers. His Raven's Teeth ultimately gained the Weeping Ridge, and rained down arrows on Daemon's position from 300 yards away.[5] Daemon and his twin sons were killed. For this, people would name him a kinslayer.
Brynden served on the small council of Daeron II, on the council he adovcated a hard line against rebels.[6] After the rebellion, he became Hand of the King to Aerys I. As "Lord Bloodraven" he was rumored to be a sinister sorcerer, effectively ruling the kingdom “with spies and spells”. A song about Bloodraven, "A Thousand Eyes, and One", was still sung almost a century later.[7] The events of The Sworn Sword take place during his reign as Hand, though he does not personally take part in the story. Somehow he ended imprisoned in the Black Cells and around 233 AL, when King Aegon V ascended to the throne, he was sent to the Wall. Eventually he rose to Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. There is a song about him, "A Thousand Eyes, and One".[8]

#37 PrinceHenryris

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 01:15 AM

I'm not sure what I think will become of the Reed children, but I'm still hoping for Howland to leave Greywater Watch and do something cool.

#38 Wouter

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 06:27 AM

There are some things that make me somewhat uneasy about Jojen's fate. Meera and Jojen aren't where Bran expects them after he returns from eating the "greenseer paste". It is unclear if the paste contains blood or not - the descriptions are ambiguous but there are a lot of cannibalism references throughout Bran's chapters in this book (when Coldhands brings Meera, Jojen and Braw "a sow" for example - or is it?). Bran's last chapter ends with a human sacrifice, which shows that "the singers" aren't beyond that and just like Melisandre they may demand blood from time to time - maybe a greenseers blood rather than King's blood?

Earlier in Bran's last chapter, at one point Bran says "They [the singers] will kill me!???" and Jojens response is : "He is not the one who has to be afraid". Jojen is sullen and frightened in the cave, and Meera is crying and sad. One wonders what they day is that Jojen will die, and the whole atmosphere of that last chapter gives me the creeps.

I think Meera is not in direct danger - Jojen's sinister greendream seems to be about himself only. Meera notices that he seems to have given up and it also looks like the three-eyed crow was a big disappointment to them. I wonder if Jojen may end up, or already has ended up, as a human sacrifice (and what better reason but to bring Bran to the next level of greenseer superwizardry?). Or maybe he is destined to take Bloodraven's place instead of Bran as you would expect, and that's why Jojen is so disappointed and melancholous now he sees the reality of being in that position.

Anyway, the fact that Martin chose to end the chapter with Bran explicitly expecting to see the Reeds but both being absent raises all kinds of alarms with me. I wonder if either Jojen may have been killed (or allowed himself to have been killed, or maybe just leeched or something) or if Meera and Jojen are trying to escape the cave through the underground river or something like that.

I hope this queston will be asked to Martin in the next Q&A - if he intended a cliffhanger here or if I and some others are seeing ghosts here.

#39 Tourmaline Dragon

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 09:11 AM

Well said Wouter.

There are some things that make me somewhat uneasy about Jojen's fate. Meera and Jojen aren't where Bran expects them after he returns from eating the "greenseer paste". It is unclear if the paste contains blood or not - the descriptions are ambiguous but there are a lot of cannibalism references throughout Bran's chapters in this book (when Coldhands brings Meera, Jojen and Braw "a sow" for example - or is it?). Bran's last chapter ends with a human sacrifice, which shows that "the singers" aren't beyond that and just like Melisandre they may demand blood from time to time - maybe a greenseers blood rather than King's blood?


As we all know only death can pay for a life etc. there is always a high price to pay, that’s why I am open to the possibility of Jojen ending up in that paste /ack.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ack:' /> so that Bran can become a greenseer.

There is ambiguity. Bran supposes that the red veins are caused by sap; it is only a presumption on his part not a confirmation. GRRM also goes through the phases of the moon in the Bran chapters and more than once “the moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife” that brings to mind the blade of the bronze sickle.

#40 Wouter

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 11:47 AM

I do have the impression that GRRM was at least trying to make us doubt what was in the paste, and if anything happened with Jojen. I would call it a cliffhanger - if a very subtle one, not of the Brienne sort.