307 replies to this topic

[commando penguin]

good point Calibandar. id forgotten that Bittersteel was a Targaryen 'pretender'. yeh it probably will be someone from the golden company then

[ActRight05]

I think the perfumed seneschal is Garth the Gross, lord seneschal of Highgarden.

[Sheizerbrick]

but why would she need to beware of garth? he doesnt sound like someone who could pull off an assassination or something.

[ActRight05]

Sheizerbrick, on Nov 14 2005, 08.32, said:

but why would she need to beware of garth? he doesnt sound like someone who could pull off an assassination or something.

He doesn't seem like it, but how could we know?  Anything is possible in Westeros.

Edited by ActRight05, 14 November 2005 - 06:06 PM.

[History of Westeros]

Varys has often been described as wearing lots of perfume... I think he's the frontrunner for "perfumed seneschal".  

I advanced a theory on another thread that Varys will turn on Dany because he is anti-magic.  This 'warning' gives me more confidence in that theory.

[Bormon]

Quote

Quaithe tells Dany "The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare. After her will come the others [no caps]. Crow and kraken, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Remember the undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Ok, maybe I'm nuts but I have a different take on this "prophecy"

First does anyone know what the "glass candles" are?  This would probably give us some from of reference.  I am not sure who the pale mare is but I think the others are this

Crow: Aemon.  He is the only (known) living member of the family.  
Kracken: Theon Greyjoy.  I think at some point he is going to take the black, being a slight outcast he will accompany Aemon on his journey.  

Lion: Tyrion, I think EVERYONE believes this
Griffen: I haven't read too many spoilers, and haven't read AFFC but everyone beleives that this will be young "Griff"  

Sun's Son: Quentyn Martell, also seems pretty obvious
Mummer's Dragon: I am starting to buy into the Baby Aegon imposter theory.  

If you notice they are given in pairs. Aemon and Theon may come together, Tryrion and Griff come together, and finally Martell and the imposter com together.  I think that the Martells are going to try and get the dragon's AND with the "rightful" heir to the throne they will try and usurp Dany's power.

I think that Illyrio is the "perfumed" senechal.  I beleive the Illyrio is going to betray Dany.  Dany I think will unwittingly trust him because of his past protection. Varys has only ever acted in a manner to protect the realm and bring back the Targaryen family to power.  Illyrio on the other hand isn't quite as atruistic.  I think Illyrio is going to bring the Mummer's Dragon and betray Dany.

Quaithe says to "remember the undying" is this a reference to one of the visions she saw there, or some other aspect of her trip.


FINALLY, unrelated to the dream is the following line...

Barsena replies that "all men must die... all women, too."

Isn't this the Faceless Men's creed?  I wonder if Barsena is a faceless man?

Edited by Bormon, 15 November 2005 - 01:24 PM.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Uh, have you read AFFC yet?

Without giving away more at least one of your guesses is impossible.

[Bormon]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on Nov 15 2005, 13.19, said:

Uh, have you read AFFC yet?

Without giving away more at least one of your guesses is impossible.

No I haven't (I miss typed above)  So without giving it away....I can assume that at least ONE of my guesses is dead, hmmmmmm.... that sux

[Werthead]

Bormon, on Nov 15 2005, 18.26, said:

No I haven't (I miss typed above)  So without giving it away....I can assume that at least ONE of my guesses is dead, hmmmmmm.... that sux

Two of your theories are dead wrong from information in AFFC, another two are on the button and your open-ended question gets answered in AFFC.

Hope that's not too spoilerific. Actually telling you the exact details would definitely wreck some of the story surprises in AFFC.

Barsena's All Men Must Die seems to be the creed of the Faceless Men, derived from Valyria (Valar Morghulis).

Edited by Werthead, 15 November 2005 - 04:27 PM.

[Old Zog]

Another 'perfumed seneschal' possibility: the archmaester chosen to head the Citadel is called the Seneschal.  Maybe the 'perfumed seneschal' will be someone connected to the Citadel?  (I.e., this might be a warning not to trust the maesters.)

[Mikey]

Plus the perfumed seneschal cant be Illyrio (as in hes not a seneschal).  The only person i can think of is varys, as he can be cosidered a seneschal and frequently wears a lot of perfume, though this was only for disguise, itll be interesting to see if he still wears perfume when he finally catches up with Dany.

Edited by Mikey, 16 November 2005 - 06:38 PM.

[Jughead of the Round]

I like the perfumed Seneschal being someone from the Citadel, we know the Citadel will send a maester that will put Dany in danger. But I just can't see a maester wearing perfume for some reason.

Dany's Meereen advisor seems like a red herring, although he is untrustworthy.

Varys could be him as well. Perhaps he supported Dany returning, but now that he has learned she has dragons, he may become her enemy? (Remember that he hates magic)

[lockesnow]

I think Varys is the perfumed Seneschal, remember the man hates magic with a passion, and since dragons are inherently magical...

I also think after some of the politics outlined in this chapter that Dany will leave Mereen to seek shelter in Asshai, following Quaithe's instructions and coming to Westeros the other way round.  She can't afford a war against Quarth, Yunkai and all their allies.  The dragons are too terrifying to people, it fucks with the economy by letting someone like Dany have power, warriors Dany can handle, but I think she can only run from the economic and scientific zealots that will strive to destroy the dragons and all they stand for.  Asshai and the Red Priests seem to be the only people in the world that want the dragons to survive.

Edited by lockesnow, 19 November 2005 - 03:21 AM.

[Multaniette]

Have we considered the possibility of the 'perfumed seneschal' to be someone we haven't encountered yet?

There are a billion factions scattered around Martin's world who would love to get their hands on Dany's dragon and even merely to know her more closely.

[Bloodraven]

I don't think that the pairing of the different titles mean that they are coming together. I think they are only paired in the prophecy, because they are coming from the same geographic areas. I think the Crow and the Kraken are the only pairing that are working together. The others just happen to come from the same places.

I think Tyrion and Quenten are correct, but you'll see that there are better candidates for the other spots after finishing tFfC. :read:  :cheers:

[Red Rex]

Calibandar, on Nov 7 2005, 14.40, said:

More likely:

Crow and Kraken; Euron and Victarion

Lion and Griffin: Tyrion and Griff/Young Griff

Sun's son and Mummer's Dragon: Quentyn Martell and someone from the Golden Company

The perfumed seneschal?

Reznak, Illyrio or Varys.

Pale Mare: Some sort of reference to a Dothrake who is forthcoming IMO.

The perfumed seneshal is VARYS

[Red Rex]

commando penguin, on Nov 12 2005, 22.38, said:

good point Calibandar. id forgotten that Bittersteel was a Targaryen 'pretender'. yeh it probably will be someone from the golden company then

will bittersteels descendant have the tarygan sword?

[Artanaro]

I posted this same message in another thread, but it seems very applicable here.

I looked up the definition of seneschal on dictionary.com, since I had no idea what the word meant.

Quote

sen·e·schal   Pronunciation Key  (sn-shl)
n.

    An official in a medieval noble household in charge of domestic arrangements and the administration of servants; a steward or major-domo.

That sounds much less like Varys and more like someone named Illyrio. But there are many candidates for this person beyond even him, in particular Xaro Xhoan Daxos.  Let's examine both cases.


Arguement for Illyrio
1. He is a magister with a considerable number of servants at his command.  The text notes Unsullied are used as his household guard, while from Dany's AGOT chapters, Illyrio provides servants to teach her the Dothraki tongue and horseback riding.  He does fit a definition of a possible seneschal.

Arguement against:
1. Illyrio is working with Varys to return Targaryen's to the throne.  Betrayal needs a motive. Queenmaking is quite profitable, so any benefit from hurting Dany would be far outweighed by supporting her.  Another reason must exist besides monetary gain.  

2. Why provide Dany with Barristan and Strong Belwas? Both have proved trustworthy and valuable additions to her party.


Arguement for Xaro Xhoan Daxos:
1. From ACOK, Xaro's home is described as "a palace larger than many a market town" with "slaves to tend her every need" (p. 320 US Hardcover).  Xaro is described as surrounding himself with silks and possessing his own pleasure barge.  A perfumed seneschal is an appropriate title for Xaro.

2. Xaro clearly coveted Dany's dragons, as seen my his courting her for a wife, despite having no desire for women.

3. From the spoiler chapters, Xaro has already threatened Dany with "war."

Arguement against:
1. Xaro is a merchant prince of Qarth. A seneschal does seem to imply an absence of royalty, which would make more sense then for Varys or Illyrio to be the ideal candidates since both were born poor.


Arguement for Varys:
1. An accurate take on Varys is definitely "perfumed."  He often wear silks and colorful garb.

2. Varys is in a very good position to ruin Dany's plans.  He has a professed animosity towards all magic users, and must of heard the link between Dragons and magic.

Arguement against:
1.  Why go through the effort to get Dorne's backing for Dany, marry her to Khal Drogo, and acquire Tyrion's assistance if he only intends to betray her.  That is alot of unnecessary work.

2. Though Varys has his "little birds", he doesn't quite fit the definition of a steward.  He deals in secrets, not in ruling a household.


For my take, it seems apparant that Xaro is the prime candidate, but it's not a perfect guess.

Artanaro

Edited by Artanaro, 21 November 2005 - 01:29 PM.

[AverageGuy]

Yes, a seneschal's equivalent to a steward.  Though seneschals sometimes took care of lands, too.  They essentially were the Chiefs of Staff/Head Butlers of their day, so I don't think it's Illyrio.  Xaro's left, so we probably won't see him much anymore.  I think Varys is probably it or someone we haven't seen..  I said the Mage earlier, but upon a reread, I can't picture him being perfumed.

[Mikey]

Going by that definition why do u think it could be illyrio or  Xaro Xhoan Daxos?  They are rich nobles not servants/stewards (maesters).