Okay, so I know there are already a million threads about Wheel of Time...

[Condesln]

...but I couldn't find one that really explained how good/bad Crossroads of Twilight really is in relation to other books. How bad is it? Honestly. Stanek bad? Is it so horrific that it destroys the series, or are people just jumping the band-wagon and complaining because someone else is? I remember when people told me AFFC was going to suck, and that ADWD wasn't much better... so I went in thinking they were going to be the worst published fantasy novels ever written (people sure made it sound that way), and then I read them and ended up liking them. Sure, they weren't as good as the first 3, but were they as bad as people were making them out to be? Hell no.

I haven't started the series, as I'm waiting for it to be complete (I figure if I start reading sometime this year I'll be able to read the final book when it comes out), as I did with Malazan (which I enjoyed immensely).

Is it worth reading this series despite this flaw? Is it so horrific that I should stay away from the entire series because nothing could possibly ever redeem it from it's black-hole of awfulness?

[Barnes]

I started the series with 11 books already completed, I remember reading about people complaining it went downhill after this book or that book, for me, it didn't change much throughout, pretty decent YA fantasy, well worth the read.

[Galactus]

It's not Stanek bad, there's no defilement of character, not even that horrible prose (compared to the rest of the books that is)

It's just 800+ pages of NOTHING HAPPENING:

[Condesln]

It's not Stanek bad, there's no defilement of character, not even that horrible prose (compared to the rest of the books that is)

It's just 800+ pages of NOTHING HAPPENING:

Is it excusable? Is it worth reading the series despite this flaw?

[Switchback]

Crossroads won't be nearly as bad for you because you won't have to wait for the next book after reading it. That's why it got so much hate at the beginning. Because we had been waiting for it, nothing happens in it, and then we had to wait for the next one. I don't get why new readers would have huge problems with it now though. Take like 3 days to plow through it and then move right onto the next (much better) book Knife of Dreams.

[Condesln]

...pretty decent YA fantasy...

Wow, just a second. This is a YA series? I thought this was comparable to ASOIAF & Malazan?

[DrownedCrow]

I thought this was comparable to ASOIAF & Malazan?

I can't imagine what gave you that impression. Maturity-wise it's about neck and neck with Harry Potter.

[Joanna vander Poele]

So, is the chapter of Elayne's bath in this book? And is this really just a chapter of her bathing? :P Really, really, really?

[Condesln]

I can't imagine what gave you that impression. Maturity-wise it's about neck and neck with Harry Potter.

Pretty much everyone has attempted to convince me so, and some people go on to claim that it's superior :worried:

[HighwayStar]

I haven't read anything by that guy Stanek, and I was not even aware of him before I started visiting this forum. Then again I am a very selective fantasy reader, and tend to read only stuff that has been recommended by other people as good. That said, Crossroads of Twilight's biggest sin is that, in comparison to most of the other books in the series, it is obviously little more than filler material, and the only thing that really moves the plot forward is its ending.

That said, I have read the whole series a number of times, and I would definitely recommend it, though it is quite different from Martin's books - especially as regards the large role that magic plays in the whole story. The world-building, however, is superb and very realistic, and there is a huge number of historical and mythological references as regards both the characters and the various locales - something which I found very fascinating. As to any comparisons to Harry Potter (which I like a lot), I don't agree at all, though there is very little sex in the series (and, whenever sexual situations are presented, they are glossed over), and the violence is not as graphic as it can be in Martin (which does not mean there isn't any, far from that).

[fionwe1987]

Pretty much everyone has attempted to convince me so, and some people go on to claim that it's superior :worried:

It's not Harry Potter level. It isn't "gritty", there isn't excessive blood and gore and rape (not described in as much detail, at least), but that doesn't make it less mature. It makes it YA friendly, but not YA, if you get my meaning. The themes explored in the series are as complex as those in aSoIaF and definitely better handled than in Malazan (most of the time, which is more the fault of Malazan than anything else).

What you need to be prepared for is an overdeveloped world. Which means there are going to be lots of times (especially in books 8-10) when too much attention is given to side characters, and too much time is spent on minutia and certain story lines get stretched out to allow other character arcs to catch up. These parts aren't badly written (compared to the rest), but they do interfere with the pacing of the series, and divert focus away from the central (and still very wonderfully well executed) story.

As for CoT: The book is weirdly structured. It deals with about a two week period, half of it before and half of it after a very major, reality altering event that occurs in the end of book nine with relation to two of the main characters. However, the effect of this even is not that major for most story arcs in the immediate term, and only one group of characters is really majorly affected right away. So why Jordan chose to center the book on the reaction to this event is baffling. But "nothing happens" is a huge stretch, and the book isn't a series killer.

[DrownedCrow]

Pretty much everyone has attempted to convince me so, and some people go on to claim that it's superior

These people do not have your best interests at heart. Do you want to read many hundreds of painstaking descriptions of dresses? Do you?

It's not Harry Potter level. It isn't "gritty", there isn't excessive blood and gore and rape (not described in as much detail, at least), but that doesn't make it less mature. It makes it YA friendly, but not YA, if you get my meaning.

You have to at least admit that Jordan's take on romantic relationships is so juvenile that it would seem out of place even in the average YA novel.

[Whitebeard]

Never Stanek bad, but much worse than AFFC by comparison. AFFC was not a bad book, it just wasn't quite as good as the other three. COT is bad book, its just filler with about one important scene the whole book. But you shoudn't worry about that, the series dips in quality much, much before COT. You will probably enjoy the first four books, and then enjoy the rest less and less respectively as you go along. The books after COT though, return to the level of quality of the first four IMO.

The series is good, but you can't compare it to Malazan or ASOIF. It's not YA, but neither is it the gritty, deconstructionist fantasy of the former. It is traditional fantasy in the mold of Tolkien, and one thing i really like about is that its very epic. The main characters all start as nobodies and become huge badasses, kind of simialr to Malazan in that sense. But its not superior to either series IMO, not by a longshot.

[peterbound]

WOT does, indeed, take a very classical 'Hero of a Thousand Faces' approach to its plot.

Kid(s) from a small village are needed to fulfill a prophecy, all become bad asses (although the whole ta'veren thing is a good plot device to get around the cheesiness of this fact) and are needed to save the world.

This is done over and over again. There is no denying the impact that WoT had on the fantasy publishing world, but to deny that it's not more YA in the current genre environment isn't accurate.

Jordan's (and Sanderson's) depiction of adult material is handled very, very poorly. Sex, violence, emotions, political interactions, romantic involvement, everything that would require mature prose is dealt with descriptions a 14 year old could digest. This may or may not have been Mr. Rigney's original intent, but it sure as hell turned out that way.

To compare the novels to ASoIF, Malazan, Abercrombie, or Bakker is completely inaccurate. Read them for what they are, a very classically (or derivative, depending on who you ask) telling of a hero's story, that started off as a great idea and spiraled into braid pulling, dress descriptions, and poorly written love triangles.

ETA: I aslo think you should take into considerations the publishers decision to actually repackage the books as YA novels, i believe in an attempt to pull in that market to a book set that fits the mold.

[fionwe1987]

You have to at least admit that Jordan's take on romantic relationships is so juvenile that it would seem out of place even in the average YA novel.

But romance is hardly the central feature of this series. If this were a romance story, then you could call the whole series YA because the romance isn't handled all that well. But that's far from the case.

And yes, WoT isn't deconstructing fantasy tropes. I'd say instead that its the ultimate expression of them. So much so that you could almost say that post-Jordan fantasies had to innovate or else end up being Goodkind. But I don't think you can call WoT YA. For one thing, I don't see how Rand's, Egwene's and Perrin's journeys can be called YA-friendly. Sure, anyone can read it, but there are layers that are too mature to fit the YA mold.

As for the politics, I'd say WoT has the most complex and well thought out political plotlines in recent fantasy. The issue is that some of this gets buried by the pacing issues in the later novels. Its certainly a great step above the "evil master-manipulator is behind everything" trope that bedevils so much fantasy, including aSoIaF and (especially) Malazan.

[fionwe1987]

ETA: I aslo think you should take into considerations the publishers decision to actually repackage the books as YA novels, i believe in an attempt to pull in that market to a book set that fits the mold.

Why repackage something that already fits the mold? Also, they stopped doing that with the second book, probably realizing that the later books just won't gel with the other stuff in YA bookshelves.

[Jutah the Juggler]

I never read the series until after Knife of Dreams was already out, so it wasn't that I was disappointed in it because I had been waiting...it's just annoying because nothing much happens is a pretty damn thick book.

At the end of Winter's Heart (book 9), there is a very major event. Most of Crossroads (book 10) is told from the perspective of other characters who weren't present at that event and what's going on "from a distance". The timeline doesn't move forward and you don't really need their perspective.

[peterbound]

Why repackage something that already fits the mold? Also, they stopped doing that with the second book, probably realizing that the later books just won't gel with the other stuff in YA bookshelves.

I think they felt they had to break the bastards up. Just because he writes to a less mature audience doesn't mean he doesn't write a shit load of it.

I think they realized that after the second book, the kids could just go out and buy the original release. There was little need to repackage them, as teenagers were already buy (and enjoying) the subsequent books.

Listen, i think you stubborn defense of the books is great. You always come into these treads and defend the hell out of books that aren't really considered great. That takes dedication and loyalty. Good for you. I think you need to accept though that your chosen fandom just doesn't hold up when compared to some of the more 'mature' books floating around, and that when put up against them, they look like YA novels.

And the politics? Are you serious? If anything that was one of the weakest parts of the books. Elyane stories were silly at best, the White Tower 'politics' were ridiculous and merely plot devices to get his characters into positions of power. That, if anything is one of the weakest aspects of your pro-WoT arguments.

Tell people to read them for the Kewl characters. Tell them to read it for the magic system (which didn't really get worked out till later on), but don't try to sell the books on the politics.

[nickg]

I dont think you should take WoT being YA or " juvenile " as an insult. Its the way they were written and it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

They really can not be compared to PoN, Malazan, or ASoIaF, or any of the more mature series.

[fionwe1987]

I think they felt they had to break the bastards up. Just because he writes to a less mature audience doesn't mean he doesn't write a shit load of it.

I think they realized that after the second book, the kids could just go out and buy the original release. There was little need to repackage them, as teenagers were already buy (and enjoying) the subsequent books.

Listen, i think you stubborn defense of the books is great. You always come into these treads and defend the hell out of books that aren't really considered great. That takes dedication and loyalty. Good for you. I think you need to accept though that your chosen fandom just doesn't hold up when compared to some of the more 'mature' books floating around, and that when put up against them, they look like YA novels.

Why thank you. That's my afternoon dose of much needed condescension. For free!

And the politics? Are you serious? If anything that was one of the weakest parts of the books. Elyane stories were silly at best, the White Tower 'politics' were ridiculous and merely plot devices to get his characters into positions of power. That, if anything is one of the weakest aspects of your pro-WoT arguments.

Care to expand on that statement. Maybe within spoiler tags in case the OP decides to read the series.

Tell people to read them for the Kewl characters. Tell them to read it for the magic system (which didn't really get worked out till later on), but don't try to sell the books on the politics.

Thank you, but I think I'll stick to recommending the series for what I liked about it, and what I think is good in it.