[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[Septa Morgaine]

Much has been made of Sansa being used as Littlefinger's pawn as the narrative progresses - what LF seems to assume is that Tyrion will roll over and die - something he has managed not to do thus far. Moreover, Tyrion seems oddly nostalgic about his wife, thinking on one or two occasions in ADwD that he missed her. (Granted, Sansa at the outset seems relieved not to have to maintain the pretense of her marriage) Is it out of the realm of possibility to envision a reconciliation of this unlikely odd couple?

[RAAM]

maybe a reunion, but i think it would be too sappy if GRRM pulled a beauty and the beast thing, but i think that tyrion will die in the last book anyway

[littlebird_]

Poor Littlefinger, as good as he is in the game, still hasn't figured out Tyrion is GRRM's favorite

I think the marriage was GRRM's way of making sure that Littlefinger's plans have a very definite problem so even if he magically makes all the conditions work for him he still has the marriage issue and his plans will fail at least because of that

I didn't get the impression that Tyrion missed her but if anything there might be a friendly reunion in the last book, Sansa considers him to be kind and Tryion doesn't hate her as much as he hates Shae but the marriage will end somehow, I don't really see that lasting.

[Silverin]

Much has been made of Sansa being used as Littlefinger's pawn as the narrative progresses - what LF seems to assume is that Tyrion will roll over and die - something he has managed not to do thus far. Moreover, Tyrion seems oddly nostalgic about his wife, thinking on one or two occasions in ADwD that he missed her. (Granted, Sansa at the outset seems relieved not to have to maintain the pretense of her marriage) Is it out of the realm of possibility to envision a reconciliation of this unlikely odd couple?

He calls both Tysha and Sansa as his wife. So when he said it was not necceserly Sansa, not to mention it is not like they communicated that much. Sansa was as distant to him as possibly one can be. If he misses that treatment he must be quite pathetic.

On the Tyrion Sansa marriage,if they want to use Sansa for getting the North some could persuade the Faith to annul the marriage, after all it is widly known that she was forced in to it and they never consumated it.

[milliniar]

He calls both Tysha and Sansa as his wife. So when he said it was not necceserly Sansa, not to mention it is not like they communicated that much. Sansa was as distant to him as possibly one can be. If he misses that treatment he must be quite pathetic.

On the Tyrion Sansa marriage,if they want to use Sansa for getting the North some could persuade the Faith to annul the marriage, after all it is widly known that she was forced in to it and they never consumated it.

that is true but he would have to do that before any marriage took place therefore saying he has Sansa and she is still alive and depending on any changes that could take place in the future of the faith would they do it, without getting LF to work something else out.

[Susan Delgado]

I hope not, I would hate to see Sansa having to stay with him and bear dwarf children (shudders)

[Wouter]

He calls both Tysha and Sansa as his wife. So when he said it was not necceserly Sansa, not to mention it is not like they communicated that much. Sansa was as distant to him as possibly one can be. If he misses that treatment he must be quite pathetic.

He does seem to be bitter about losing her all the same. Some lines from Tyrion's chapters: "I don't seem to be able to keep wives for very long", "all the girls cry when I kiss them", "most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can" - all references to Sansa for the most part IMO (though the first one is also about Tysha, to be sure).

He also called her "false" in his thoughts. Tyrion apparently still doesn't realise just how badly he treated Sansa, as he apparently expected her to love him and be loyal to him even though he had forced her to marry him while he was holding her captive, in the midst of a war between his family and hers (which ended with hers being wiped out, as far as both knew at the time). He made her a Lannister and put a stop to the betrothal with Willas, which she was looking forward to. For such an intelligent guy (so intelligent that he has a perfect read of Dany without ever meeting her), he is remarkably blind when it comes to Sansa and how he expected her to react. How could Tyrion ever expect to be loved, did he think that one time he openly helped her would wipe out all the rest of the injustices?

[Dio Forel]

Idk if he really misses her much. One main time I recall him mentioning Sansa was when Penny was trying to put the moves on him, and he mentioned it to basically distract from the real reason he wanted nothing to do with Penny physically/sexually. More like 'Oh darn if only I wasn't married to Sansa I'd be all up on you'.

[Ame]

LF could pull out the Tysha marriage and declare Tywin had no right to annul it? Jaime could easily testify that Tysha was no whore (he was glad enough to testify for Tyrion about that). That would invalidate Tyrion's second marriage especially if LF could produce a fake Tysha.

[Dio Forel]

LF could pull out the Tysha marriage and declare Tywin had no right to annul it? Jaime could easily testify that Tysha was no whore (he was glad enough to testify for Tyrion about that). That would invalidate Tyrion's second marriage especially if LF could produce a fake Tysha.

Is this A Song of Ice & Fire or Days of our Lives? Why would this ever be done? Do we really need more unnecessary side stories/revelations? This story needs to go forward please lol. Jamie is probably dead/soon to be dead anyway. Marriage annulments? And who would this be testified to? Of all that is going on in their world, why would anybody care or spend the time on a fake Tysha marriage ending scheme?

[wvlr]

Is this A Song of Ice & Fire or Days of our Lives? Why would this ever be done? Do we really need more unnecessary side stories/revelations? This story needs to go forward please lol. Jamie is probably dead/soon to be dead anyway. Marriage annulments? And who would this be testified to? Of all that is going on in their world, why would anybody care or spend the time on a fake Tysha marriage ending scheme?

I don't think that Tyrion will find a willing Tasha, or will live long. I was wondering what are Sansa's rights regarding Casterly Rock, once Ceresi gets herself killed.

It would be funny if Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa to get a toe hold at Winterfell but instead Sansa gets Casterly Rock. Admitted, that is a very thin thread for her to do that. Still a far fetched thought.

[Dio Forel]

I don't think that Tyrion will find a willing Tasha, or will live long. I was wondering what are Sansa's rights regarding Casterly Rock, once Ceresi gets herself killed.

It would be funny if Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa to get a toe hold at Winterfell but instead Sansa gets Casterly Rock. Admitted, that is a very thin thread for her to do that. Still a far fetched thought.

Wait, what? She has no claims to Casterly Rock. She left because she was implicated in Joff's murder. She is under disguise still and is with LF as mistress of the Eyrie. If anything, her identity would give her claim over Winterfell not Casterly Rock.

[Amae Koromo]

I don't think that Tyrion will find a willing Tasha, or will live long. I was wondering what are Sansa's rights regarding Casterly Rock, once Ceresi gets herself killed.

It would be funny if Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa to get a toe hold at Winterfell but instead Sansa gets Casterly Rock. Admitted, that is a very thin thread for her to do that. Still a far fetched thought.

She is not in the line for Casterly Rock. Supposing Tyrion could claim it:

Tyrion > Cersei > Tommen > Myrcela > Kevan's sons > Tyrek > Genna Lannister > Genna's descendants

(yeah, there is a chance that some Freys will inherit Casterly Rock)

If Sansa had a kid with Tyrion, that kid would have a claim for Casterly Rock. But not Sansa

For Riverrun (supposing the Tullys are able to reclaim it):

Edmure > Edmure's unborn child > Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya > Sweetrobin > Brynden Tully

For Winterfell:

Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya

Considering that Bran is a tree, Rickon could be in a good position to be powerful, depending on what happens.

[Alexia]

He does seem to be bitter about losing her all the same. Some lines from Tyrion's chapters: "I don't seem to be able to keep wives for very long", "all the girls cry when I kiss them", "most women prefer to be done with me as quickly as they can" - all references to Sansa for the most part IMO (though the first one is also about Tysha, to be sure).

Wouter, don't you think the last two referred to Shae as well? I thought it was also partially Tyrion's dawning realization that his father was right and even his whores didn't want him in their beds. So it was, IMO, bitterness that no woman would ever sexually desire him and he is constantly reminding himself of that.

I don't see a reconciliation of the two; really lame to replay this story with a different ending. And after reading ADWD, I got a very relieved sense (because I was unsure beforehand) that he wouldn't attempt to force her to accept the marriage; he seems to have resigned himself to losing her. Actually, I was very interested when he said he missed Shae. With Sansa, he could never forget who or what he was but Shae was able to make him feel better about himself.

[Septa Morgaine]

I was under the impression that Tywin had Tyrion's first marriage to Tysha annulled after the gang-rape episode. In any event, LF has his work cut out for him with regards to any planned second marriage for Sansa. It will be easier for her marriage to Tyrion to be annulled because it was not consummated, but LF still assumes Stark bannermen will rally to Sansa with a Vale husband as opposed to a Lannister husband.

It seems a Sansa/Tyrion reunion is a fringe theory; their marriage still should pose an obstacle to LF's scheming. Willingly, or unwillingly, she is still Lady Lannister for the nonce.

[littlespider]

Total speculation ahead:

I think there may be grounds for Sansa's marriage to be annulled even without the non-consummation clause, provided Tysha is still alive (someone mentioned this upthread). It seems to me like the rationale behind Tywin's annulment of T/T's marriage was that Tysha was a whore (or something or other) and that it was never valid in the first place. But if she wasn't a whore, then the marriage was signed and sealed. Despite the, you know, horrible gang rape by the soldiers. I think that even if Tysha is currently dead, if it could be proven that she was still alive at the time Tyrion married Sansa, their marriage would still be invalid. I'm not saying that anyone will necessarily dig all of this up, just that there is much ground for speculation on the legitimacy of the marriage itself aside from the whole side of Sansa essentially being coerced into it.

As for this having slightly more cultural/historical precedent than "Days of Our Lives"... Richard III (still Richard of Gloucester and regent at the time) had his late brother Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Wydville declared invalid on the grounds that one of them (can't remember which!) was married before. Edward and Elizabeth already had kids at this point, and the boys were declared illegitimate. This post-mortem annulment of Edward's marriage had major political and historical implications. Of course, Richard's claim should be seen as suspect, since the illegitimacy of the boys conveniently paved his way to the throne, but even so.*

Aside from that, I'd love to see Tyrion and Sansa meet up again, get their marriage annulled, and make a kind of peace. I actually think they could make fantastic political allies, or even co-members of somebody's small council someday. Some of this would depend of course on Sansa continuing to become more savvy under LF, and Tyrion getting his mojo back after moping endlessly through aDwD. Both of them seemed to have developed a kind of sympathy (as opposed to pity) for the other given their distance, and it might just be enough for the development of an eventual friendship or alliance. I'd love to see them working together again at some point. But NOT as a happily married couple. I really think George foreclosed on that possibility in SoS.

(*It's also been pointed out on these boards that Ned was a kind of failed Richard III figure; I tend to agree with this idea, especially because Martin has said that Robert himself was based on Edward IV.)

[Nightstar]

I can't see any happily-ever-after for Sansa and Tyrion.

Even if she could overcome her repugnance to his appearance, he would still be a Lannister, and there's no way she could overcome her revulsion to that!

But anyway I doubt her marriage to Tyrion was valid in the first place; there's no reason to think Tysha is dead, and I'm not sure Tywin ever bothered to get it properly annulled.

[Mockingwren]

I thought that Sansa and Tyrion never consumated the marriage - this means that Litylefinger could just marry her off.

[Mockingwren]

Littlefinger*

[Alexia]

I think there may be grounds for Sansa's marriage to be annulled even without the non-consummation clause, provided Tysha is still alive (someone mentioned this upthread). It seems to me like the rationale behind Tywin's annulment of T/T's marriage was that Tysha was a whore (or something or other) and that it was never valid in the first place.

Doubt it; I tend to think that the rationale behind the annulment was probably that Tyrion was a minor child and thus did not have the right to consent. It is always possible that Tywin didn't bother to have it properly annulled (though I still think he did, it seems to me that he would have just killed Tysha otherwise) and therefore the marriage to Sansa is invalid. However, if she goes for grounds beyond the non-consummation one (which is best for her, as it establishes her virginity) it seems that she might go for the grounds that her marriage is invalid because Robb Stark (the head of her House) did not give his consent, she was unable to give meaningful consent due to her age, and the Lannisters did not have the right to make a marriage on her behalf. Of course, this would necessitate a total crash and burn of the current Lannister regime but face it, we all know that is coming.