[ADwD Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[littlebird_]

And I don't understand it. Yeah, it's a possibility. But the level of discussion goes waaaay beyond a random possibility. It's like - nobody is even considering any other ending for Sansa. She'll get an annulment (somehow), and she'll either marry someone nice, or she'll be single forever in WF. But the annulment is the critical part.

And yeah, anything may happen. But Lysa never considered it. Littlefinger has never considered it. Sansa has never considered it. Tyrion has never considered it. None of the people who would benefit from it, in other words, has ever considered it!

What other ending do you consider? We can also discuss that. I think her and Tyrion ending up together has also been mentioned more than a few times. Lysa and Littlefinger never considered the annulment because they were counting on Tyrion dying. Sansa never considers it because she doesn't care at this point nor does she want to remarry. I don't know why Tyrion hasn't considered it though but probably the reason Sansa doesn't, he just doesn't care enough about it and he might also consider Sansa to be dead at this point. I really don't know how he thinks Sansa is surviving after her escape, he doesn't really give the marriage or Sansa that much independent thought only when it relates to how no one will love him.

[Alexia]

OK, relax on the righteous indignation. :P

Trio, I'm just going to go ahead and say it and I am truly not trying to be mean. But you obviously have your own theories and idea of how you expect the story to go. Why not just join the thread and float them instead of scolding people for whatever theory is being discussed? I see you do this a lot in Sansa threads (most recently scolding everyone for discussing marital possibilities for Sansa) and I really don't get it. Why not join the conversation and add to it, instead of trying to shut it down? No one knows how it will go, your guess is as legitimate as ours.

I think that "excitement and anticipation" is a real mischaracterization of what is being talked about too. People are talking about annulment because she has grounds for it and the Lannisters were concerned about it -- ergo, it is considered a legitimate possibility. It is silly and untrue to say nobody ever considers any other possibility for Sansa. A few posters in this thread have discussed the possibility that the marriage is there for good, for example.

If you are saying that no one is considering an alternate ending then you really ought to reread the thread.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

OK, relax on the righteous indignation. :P

Every. single. time. I have seen Tyrion & Sansa's name even in the same thread (any thread, not just this one) it's only about another coupla posts before someone starts feverishly talking about annulment. It's like, an annulment is almost expected at this stage. Almost a given. I was asking why?? Why all the excitement and anticipation about an annulment? What's the appeal?

Nobody's answered though.

. . .

So I ask what's the deal with the annulment obsession and I'm none the wiser.

Because Tyrion's never going to die, and apparently the only other way out of the marriage, per the text, is for the Faith to set it aside on the grounds of non-consummation. One could imagine that if Teflon Tyrion returns to Westeros, Sansa could avoid the unpleasant parts of marriage by staying far away from him, but she could never marry anyone else. And since Sansa's nothing but marriage material (sorry to disagree, folks, but Machiavelli and Sun Tzu combined couldn't turn that girl into a playa) she becomes irrelevant.

[Alexia]

Because Tyrion's never going to die, and apparently the only other way out of the marriage, per the text, is for the Faith to set it aside on the grounds of non-consummation. One could imagine that if Teflon Tyrion returns to Westeros,

I wouldn't be so sure about this. Another boarder had a great and hilarious theory he developed about how Tyrion will fall in love with Daenerys and when she sexually rejects him it'll be the last straw. He'll become evil incarnate, except with a dragon, the penultimate villain of the series who'll be brought down. This is a contrast with Jaime who starts at an unsympathetic point and is then made more sympathetic to the reader, while in Tyrion's case the exact opposite seems to be happening.

On a serious note, I don't think Tyrion will survive anymore. Even if he gets Casterly Rock by decree he'll be assassinated, probably by members of his own family. He's hardly Teflon as well, he has lost his nose and apparently Jorah separated him from a tooth, he committed a crime from which he can never recover and has been convicted of another one that is almost as bad, and women shudder with disgust when he comes past. He's along for the ride until ADOS, but I think he'll go down at that point. Hell, maybe he'll be fighting the Others in the North with Daenerys and encounters Lord Manderly and his cook. :dunno:

[rue721]

Sansa only needs to prove the marriage wasn't consummated, and it can be swept aside. I'm not sure Tyrion even needs to consent, as long as the non-consummation isn't disputed.

The reason I, if I were Sansa, would go with Tyrion being unable to perform rather than an non-consummation of the marriage as an argument for annulment would be: there’d be no physical examination of Sansa necessary, and the humiliation would all be on the Lannisters’ side, which could get them to cooperate much better. If the issue is just that they never consummated, Sansa would be examined and her hymen would have to be unbroken. Odds are good that she’d fail a physical exam (she goes riding, etc, all the time), and even if not – the exam itself would be humiliating. Knowing the Lannisters, they’d find some way to make her have it in front of the entire court or something equally horrible. If she says the issue is with Tyrion, no physical exam could really prove whether he’s capable or incapable, so there’s no chance of failure, and he’d be humiliated, not her. That might put pressure on the Lannisters to actually help rush the annulment through instead of stalling it – otherwise, they’d probably lose Sansa anyway, and nobody wants to see a prolonged trial to determine whether some random, deformed member of the family is impotent, too. That’s not exactly an advertisement for how awesome and marriageable the rest of the family is, honestly.

I do think that’s a worst-case-scenario and Sansa should only pull that trigger if she really, really needs an annulment right away for some reason. She might not especially like or trust Tyrion, but he’s still a good ally to have if/when she has to deal with the Lannisters in general, and an annulment argument like that would completely blow up any kind of kind relationship between them (imo).

Tyrion offered her this false choice only to make him feel better about himself - so he could say to himself he didn't force her to marry, she made the choice herself - and as a last-ditch attempt to make Sansa accept him, thinking she'd appreciate it. But why would she? Why did he wait until the very last moment, instead of going to talk with her as soon as he started thinking about going with the marriage? What kind of husband treats his prospective wife-to-be that way?

Why wouldn’t Tyrion marry Sansa? She’s far and away the best wife he could ever hope to get. Even though he feels bad that she’s unhappy about marrying him (I say that because he did offer some resistance to the marriage, and that was the argument he made – that it was cruel to make her marry him), his father had just told him that *every* girl would be unhappy about marrying him, and that every other house had refused his hand. So what’s the difference if it’s Sansa he needs to convince to love/trust him, or some other girl? His options seem to be: marry a girl who hates him or don’t marry.

And of course Tyrion would want to marry in general. He’s a grown man, and that’s what grown men do – it’d make him more respectable, give him a kind of social stamp of approval. He’s anxious about how desirable he is to women, and this way he’d get to parade one around who has to claim she loves him. His family life sucks pretty badly and of course he’d want to create a nicer one with a wife and children.

And of course Tyrion also wanted Sansa’s reassurance that she wanted to marry him. He’s a human being – his best-case scenario isn’t that she kicks and screams all the way down the aisle and makes a humiliating scene about how epically undesirable he is, it’s that she tells him she’s scared but she thinks she’ll learn to love him. At this point, he was hoping that this arrangement would eventually turn to love. I think the reason he asks is that he wants to be reassured, and the reason he hedges it with “or you could marry another Lannister” is that he’s trying to stack the deck against her telling him to his face that she’d rather do anything but marry him. I think by reminding her there are "worse" people she could be marrying, he's also reminding her not to make an awful scene -- she doesn't have to kick and scream, she can just say the world and he'll hand her over...to Joffrey.

She doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind this marriage might work, she doesn't fool herself into thinking that because Tyrion is kind he might help her escape, she is very clear about what she wants and that is to get out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters and she knows Tyrion won't help her with that.

I think a reason Tyrion fools himself into thinking that Sansa will come around is that that’s the kind of thing he *needs* to tell himself. Sansa’s his one shot at a loving, happy marriage, and her falling in love with him would be a huge triumph. How happy would he be to come home to a doting, beautiful, noble wife? Even in ADwD, there’s this shocking little phrase when he’s about to go perform the faux!joust with Penny’s pig, where he says he pretends he’s Jaime about go jousting for real – until the crowds start jeering and laughing at them. This is someone who likes to play “what if” and to play pretend that he’s “normal” – to have a lady treat him like he is would be a huge deal. He’s not going to just let that idea go forever because Sansa’s a little reluctant to see him that way after a few days of marriage. Sansa, on the other hand, doesn’t give a flying fuck what Tyrion thinks about her, I’m sure, as long as he’s not raping or otherwise abusing her. Him wanting her would mean nothing.

Sansa never considers it because she doesn't care at this point nor does she want to remarry. I don't know why Tyrion hasn't considered it though but probably the reason Sansa doesn't, he just doesn't care enough about it and he might also consider Sansa to be dead at this point.

Why would Tyrion consider it? If I were him, I’d like to grab my wife and take up my claim at Winterfell! How would annulling his marriage to Sansa be useful to Tyrion? I also think that even though Sansa is fine with being barred from marriage at present, there will probably come a day when she wishes that she were free to marry – and at that point she will think in terms of annulment, unless Tyrion is already dead. If anyone ultimately tries to get an annulment, I'd think it'd be Sansa, instead of Tyrion, because his marriage prospects are basically nill while she might yet find someone she wants to marry.

[Alexia]

Rue721, I'm not sure I agree with your analysis of the non-consummation annulment. For one thing, I'm not sure Sansa would need an examination. She was not bedded in the normal manner (publicly stripped and carried up to her bridal bed) and her continued virginity is public knowledge. I also greatly disagree that the Lannisters wouldn't fight it based on the shame of Tyrion being unable to consummate. They just had Cersei paraded naked through the streets which is 100x worse for their prestige.

Also, your comments about Tyrion's anxiousness about his own desirability makes me wonder how he would react if he were to learn about Sansa's crush on Sandor Clegane. I have always had the sense that he would be really angry were he to learn about it. He understands the very public crush on the Knight of Flowers and even references it when he is talking with her on the wedding night. I think he is understanding of this one because he wants beautiful women himself. But Sandor is ugly, less educated, brutal, angry, et cetera...and tall. I tend to think he'd take it very badly and very personally. Thoughts?

I am really enjoying your analysis of Tyrion's psychology on this, btw.

[Maia]

The woman Roose Bolton impregnated came to him with his child.

And Roose gave her her husband's mill and provided some livestock and money every year for his bastard's upkeep. I dare say that that's what the common girls who fool around with nobles and bear their bastards hope for - minus the Boltonish addition of rape and murder, that is.

Maia, what kind of dwarfism do you think Tyrion has? IMO, the description doesn't fit any one exactly but seems closest to achondroplasia (what Dinklage has). I'm not sure that anything about achondroplasia prevents muscle from building in the arms but I also tend to think that Tyrion's warrior antics are not very realistic.

Tyrion has long, muscly arms. Dinklage's arms are way too short - they wouldn't sufficiently reach past his head, so walking on hands and cartwheels are right out for him. As to what form it could be - I have no idea. OTOH, IIRC one of the dwarf actors that were discussed on these boards prior to the series (a little-known one) did have requisite arms, so it is not a complete fantasy. Tyrion's head with bulging brow does seem to suggest achondroplasia.

And yep, you are right, most forms of dwarfism are dominant. I mistakenly thought that there are quite a few recessive ones, but my memory was playing me. So, yes, most likely half of his hypothetical progeny would be dwarfs.

Of course, Tyrion was also born black-haired and then became very blond, like a Lipizzaner horse, so who knows what's really going on with him.

Re: Sansa not wanting to go to Casterly Rock - I am sure that she didn't have escape plan lined up for her by LF, she'd have been glad for any chance to escape Joff's stalking, den of lions or not. YMMV.

[rue721]

Also, your comments about Tyrion's anxiousness about his own desirability makes me wonder how he would react if he were to learn about Sansa's crush on Sandor Clegane. I have always had the sense that he would be really angry were he to learn about it. He understands the very public crush on the Knight of Flowers and even references it when he is talking with her on the wedding night. I think he is understanding of this one because he wants beautiful women himself. But Sandor is ugly, less educated, brutal, angry, et cetera...and tall. I tend to think he'd take it very badly and very personally. Thoughts?

Yes, I think he understands very well what would attract Sansa to fairy tales about gorgeous, good-hearted knights who pluck loved ones from obscurity in order to cherish them and to give them power over the loathsome people who used to torment them. He also likes stories in general and is able to buy into fantasies whole-heartedly – I think when he was a child, that kind of fantasy would have appealed to him as much as and for the same reasons it did Sansa, and a residual affect of that was his lingering crush (non-sexual, lol) on Jaime.

The thing about Tyrion’s obsession with his own looks is, of course he would want it to be that people despise him for his looks. People do obviously despise him – wouldn’t he hope to god that was because of something that he despised himself, and that he couldn’t help? How much worse would it be to believe that people despised him not because of his looks, but regardless of them or even in spite of them? Who could stand to believe that the reason people hate you is because you’re hideous *on the inside*? Even when it comes to his family – that has since changed, but for a long time he got a lot of pride out of being a Lannister. That seemed to be where a lot of his self-worth and identity came from. He told everyone he loved his family, and he really did seem to be loyal to them. How could he believe that one of the things he valued *most* about himself or that at least seemed to be the most valuable – his lineage/family – is actually despicable? It’s much easier for Tyrion to tell himself that people think he’s trash because he looks like trash, and not because he is trash inside or his entire family is trash.

And if people seem as though they’re going to judge or treat him badly, even now he’ll often draw attention to his looks or make some smart remark that is obviously aimed at disgusting or shocking the other person. An example of that is when he keeps goading Jorah on the Stinky Steward, I guess, but he does it *constantly* -- in many conversations with his father, for example. I think the point of that is to create a kind of lighting pole that will catch the other person’s hatred or disgust or shock, so that the other person’s bad feelings toward him are funneled to a “safe” place (like toward his looks or to a terrible remark, instead of being about something more essentially “him”).

So if he knew about Sansa having a crush on Sandor, I think it would be difficult for him. His usual lighting-rod – his body/looks – wouldn’t work. So he’d have to come up with some other reason why he’s worse than Sandor, but in a way that’s about something he already hates about himself/feels alienated from. At this point, when he’s almost totally alienated from the Lannisters, maybe he could use his connection to the Lannisters instead? Maybe that would be the safest way to divert Sansa’s rejection from his inner self and toward some safer, farther-away target? I guess the particular target would depend on what is least-dear to Tyrion at the point when he’d find out about Sandor and Sansa, but I do think he’d find one.

Though god knows, there is some serious thing going on if you even feel the need to completely alienate yourself from one part of yourself and use that alienated part as a kind of scapegoat and bullseye in order to keep the other parts of yourself safe. I don’t know how Tyrion’s constant desire to surround himself with sex and prostitutes or his physical recklessness fits into that, btw. Maybe that’s just how any young guy would act, and Tyrion’s behavior isn’t anything special? Honestly, no idea. Obviously my life isn’t going to consist of brothels and battles, thank god, so I don’t even know how to contextualize that!

[Prince of Braavos]

I kind of posted this in another thread, but I think they're going to wind up back together at some point, although if it's permanent is more up in the air.

Sansa's whole arc so far has been her realizing that life isn't a fairy tale and learning to play the game of thrones. So her using the old marriage to Tyrion as a way out of Littlefinger's grasp is totally logical, especially with the fact that there's at least two books' worth of story developments left. The marriage to Harrold Hardyng just doesn't seem like it's going to last, even if it happens, because 2+ whole books is a long time for GRRM to keep her in one situation. I say she spends a decent amount of the next book plotting, and at some point claims Tyrion and her really did consummate their marriage. Sex isn't the only way to get rid of a maidenhead; all she has to do is say all the stuff about them never consummating was lies. Plus if Tyrion comes back with Daenerys, Sansa will be doing the politically savvy thing of backing the winning horse and setting herself up to take some legitimate power.

Plus, doesn't it just seem like a really bittersweet ending for Tyrion and Sansa to end the series as Lord and Lady of Winterfell, not necessarily in love but at least as a legitimate husband and wife, rebuilding the North? I can totally see GRRM going in that direction long-term.

[Septa Morgaine]

Plus, doesn't it just seem like a really bittersweet ending for Tyrion and Sansa to end the series as Lord and Lady of Winterfell, not necessarily in love but at least as a legitimate husband and wife, rebuilding the North? I can totally see GRRM going in that direction long-term.

I think if Sansa and Tyrion reunite and remain married it is more likely that Sansa will be the Lady of Casterly Rock - Tyrion's ambition at this point is to claim the title and lands that he feels is his birthright by virtue of the fact that Jaime is unable and unwilling to inherit. If he survives to the end of the series I fully expect him to claim Casterly Rock. At the moment I am of the opinion that Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell by series end.

[Rarm]

So I've been thinking, depending on how things go with LFs scheme what if Sansa found herself on trial for her "part" in Joffs murder? LF most likely has this figured out (and if he doesn't it's a serious oversight) that even if he thinks thinks tyrion is dead he has no proof. Tyrion would have to be dead or the marriage would have to be annulled for her to marry Harry. Now the annulment would be pretty easy based on non consummation the big elephant in the room is Joffs murder. She's a fugitive she has to be found innocent of that first. The Lannisters are currently still in power so I doubt they would let Sansa marry Harry with no problem. If they do it in secret word will get to the Lannys/high septon and it would be declared invalid by said septon since she is already married/a fugitive. I don't think the the HS is nesscessarily in Lannisters pockets but he's a fanatic and she is breaking the law. Sorry I know this is a ramble and I'm typing on my phone so forgive me my spelling errors :P btw this might be really crackpot but what if Branson vision of the mountain the hound and jaime have to do with a trial by combat regarding sansa? Cersei would choose ungregor as her champ in regards to Joff and I could see Sandor coming out of the woodwork if he's still alive to fight for her. I could also see Jaime doing the same to keep his oath etc.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Plus, doesn't it just seem like a really bittersweet ending for Tyrion and Sansa to end the series as Lord and Lady of Winterfell, not necessarily in love but at least as a legitimate husband and wife, rebuilding the North? I can totally see GRRM going in that direction long-term.

Oh gods, no. There should never be a Lannister at Winterfell.

[voodooqueen126]

I kind of posted this in another thread, but I think they're going to wind up back together at some point, although if it's permanent is more up in the air.

Sansa's whole arc so far has been her realizing that life isn't a fairy tale and learning to play the game of thrones. So her using the old marriage to Tyrion as a way out of Littlefinger's grasp is totally logical, especially with the fact that there's at least two books' worth of story developments left. The marriage to Harrold Hardyng just doesn't seem like it's going to last, even if it happens, because 2+ whole books is a long time for GRRM to keep her in one situation. I say she spends a decent amount of the next book plotting, and at some point claims Tyrion and her really did consummate their marriage. Sex isn't the only way to get rid of a maidenhead; all she has to do is say all the stuff about them never consummating was lies. Plus if Tyrion comes back with Daenerys, Sansa will be doing the politically savvy thing of backing the winning horse and setting herself up to take some legitimate power.

Plus, doesn't it just seem like a really bittersweet ending for Tyrion and Sansa to end the series as Lord and Lady of Winterfell, not necessarily in love but at least as a legitimate husband and wife, rebuilding the North? I can totally see GRRM going in that direction long-term.

Nothing could be worse than any Lannister being the lord of Winterfell. It's most likely to be Rickon, and preserving Rickon (who the Manderly's will make side with Stannis) is the only reason Sansa should or would stay married to Tyrion.

If Sansa does have to stay married to Tyrion in order to save the Starks from a vengeful teenage girl with dragons, then lets hope for her sake that Tyrion dies after has given him an heir or two. Which would be unlikely to happen within the limited time left.

[Silverin]

this might be really crackpot but what if Branson vision of the mountain the hound and jaime have to do with a trial by combat regarding sansa? Cersei would choose ungregor as her champ in regards to Joff and I could see Sandor coming out of the woodwork if he's still alive to fight for her. I could also see Jaime doing the same to keep his oath etc.

I don't think it is entirely crackpot either. Jaime is now probably in the hands of UnCat. And as coldblooded she seems, I dont think she will let him die. She wants her children back, and she will use him for it as much as she can. And it is no coincidence that the Hound is recently among the Faith, and his first and foremost objective before was to defeate his brother, so ic an see him as Sansa's champion fighting against UnGregor. The question is where does Arya come in? According to Bran's vision Jaime, the Hound, and the Headless warrior are shadows over both the girls.

About LF, I think he has a back up plan even if Tyrion doesn't dead. In one of his chapter he said he plants different kind of seeds and if they grow out well then he sows the results, but if they dont, well then it is not a problem. He never was the type of player who put everything in one place, he always left open for different possibilities. For example when he sadi Cat the blade belonged to Tyrion, that was improvising, he thought it will be good to stirr up the peace, but he obviously didnt see all beforehand. He is more the type of player who is able to improvise depending on the actual events, I dont think he would panic if there is no word from a dead Tyrion.

He was planning Sansa's excape for quite a while, but then Sansa decided she will marry Wyllas and go to Highgarden. That is why he informed about this Tywin and orchestradted the marriage. At that time he already knew about Joff's assassination attempt (Sansa already received the veil), and he was partly responsible for turning the blame against Tyrion. His problems about his current plan: marry off Sansa are not new. He would be aware of them even before Sansa left KL, and in the Alayne chapters he does not seem bothered by it either. I say LF may have some seed growing nicely among the Faith, so that is why he feels it probably wont be a problem.

About Sansa outsmarting LF. Though I agree it would be nice, but Sansa is not aware of his role in the fall off her family. As far as she knows the ones who are responsible for it are the Lannisters and well Tyrion is a Lannister as well. I think as long as she wont be aware the truth, and as long Littlefinger dont cross a certain boundary, she wouldnt choose Tyrion over him. As many said, her outsmarting LF and allying with Tyrion sounds too far fetched, after all at the end of AFfC LF gives her a chance to get back Winterfell, to become the Lady of Winterfell with the Vale forces supporting her. Why would she turn it down (since I think her biggest wish is that, returning to her home, getting back the lands that was once her families, what did Tyrion ever give her or said her that would suggest he would grant this wish, and it would benefit her to ally with him?, he was one of the many who held her captive, didnt let her return to her brother when he was still alive. It was Tyrion who deliberatly wrote an unnacaptable terms about exchanging fugitives, just so the ones who took his letter to Robb would try to free Jaime. He never ever wanted to let Sansa go. ) ?

[inkasrain]

Adding my voice to the "No Lannisters in Winterfell!" chorus. Just... no.

Speaking of, I find it pretty ironic that Tyrion muses on how Theon will never be accepted as lord of Winterfell during ACOK... and yet in ASOS he entertains the possibility of Winterfell becoming his quite easily. I like Tyrion, but his capacity for self-deception is absolutely staggering sometimes.

[littlebird_]

About LF, I think he has a back up plan even if Tyrion doesn't dead. In one of his chapter he said he plants different kind of seeds and if they grow out well then he sows the results, but if they dont, well then it is not a problem. He never was the type of player who put everything in one place, he always left open for different possibilities. For example when he sadi Cat the blade belonged to Tyrion, that was improvising, he thought it will be good to stirr up the peace, but he obviously didnt see all beforehand. He is more the type of player who is able to improvise depending on the actual events, I dont think he would panic if there is no word from a dead Tyrion.

Yes, LF definitely has some plans that he is not revealing and he seems a little too comfortable with marrying off Sansa and then revealing her as if there won't be any problem. And LF is not the kind of man to take such bold actions without making sure he gets out of it alive . I do think that if he had been planning the Sansa/Harry marriage for a while he did get lucky in the marriage not being consummated but I am not sure that was a long-term plan. I think his original plan was to at least get through winter with Lysa alive but Lysa became a liability and he knows that he can not control the Lords forever by himself. He needs some sort of legitimacy. Thus the plan to marry Sansa off to Harry. So the Harry plan seems to me to be an improvisation because of the changing circumstances. He did mention to Sansa that Cersei was self-destructing faster than he expected so he might be counting on the Lannisters losing power soon so he can negotiate a deal with the Tyrells. I don't think anyone other than Cersei cares all that much about who killed Joffrey, if they already have someone blamed for it, he can get Sansa out of the situation. It is only Cersei who would want Sansa dead.

About Sansa outsmarting LF. Though I agree it would be nice, but Sansa is not aware of his role in the fall off her family. As far as she knows the ones who are responsible for it are the Lannisters and well Tyrion is a Lannister as well. I think as long as she wont be aware the truth, and as long Littlefinger dont cross a certain boundary, she wouldnt choose Tyrion over him. As many said, her outsmarting LF and allying with Tyrion sounds too far fetched, after all at the end of AFfC LF gives her a chance to get back Winterfell, to become the Lady of Winterfell with the Vale forces supporting her. Why would she turn it down (since I think her biggest wish is that, returning to her home, getting back the lands that was once her families, what did Tyrion ever give her or said her that would suggest he would grant this wish, and it would benefit her to ally with him?, he was one of the many who held her captive, didnt let her return to her brother when he was still alive. It was Tyrion who deliberatly wrote an unnacaptable terms about exchanging fugitives, just so the ones who took his letter to Robb would try to free Jaime. He never ever wanted to let Sansa go. ) ?

Well, firstly I think the plans for the North are lies. I can't imagine Littlefinger actually planning to attack the North as winter is coming, I think that was a way for him to get Sansa to accept the rest of the deal. Why would Sansa go along with his plans if it only consisted of marrying Harry and ruling the Vale, she doesn't care for marriage nor does she have any political ambitions, she cares about going back home so if he tells her that once she does marry Harry and get the Vale for him, he will get the North for her then there is something in the deal for her. Of course, again he is assuming that Sansa will overlook sweetrobin's fate and be willing to be married off for her claim once again. Honestly, I don't know how she'll react but I do think she'll at least have mixed feelings about it so it is not as certain as Littlefinger might think it is. On top of that, if by any chance she learns that Rickon is alive and the North is backing him up, there is no incentive left in the plan for her because once Rickon is Lord of Winterfell she can just go home, why bother with the marriage to Harry.

Now this is the first step of the equation; Sansa's initial reaction and what it might entail and within this equation there is no way Sansa even considers harming Littlefinger or even getting away from him. She's relatively at peace as Alayne and that's what Sansa wants to be left at peace. Sansa is if nothing practical, she will go after what she can get but I think she realizes that based on her conditions where she is right now is as good as it gets; she is not being beaten, she is not physically threatened and she is away from the Lannisters. If she is to in any shape or form move against Littlefinger there has to be something else that happens; either Littlefinger's advances get bolder or she learns about his role in events more or she learns that for example he is trying to kill Rickon, Sansa might overlook sweetrobin's death (I hope she doesn't but she might) she won't overlook someone trying to hurt her family.

Sorry I know this is a ramble and I'm typing on my phone so forgive me my spelling errors :P btw this might be really crackpot but what if Branson vision of the mountain the hound and jaime have to do with a trial by combat regarding sansa? Cersei would choose ungregor as her champ in regards to Joff and I could see Sandor coming out of the woodwork if he's still alive to fight for her. I could also see Jaime doing the same to keep his oath etc.

This makes sense. If Bran's dream is to come true, this happening might be more likely than Jaime and Brienne figuring out where Sansa is and Cersei sending UnGregor to the Vale. I was assuming that by the time LF was ready to declare Sansa Cersei would be out of power but it does look like she might be making a comeback so LF might arrange a trial by combat to get Sansa out of the accusations.

Now I am not clear on the rules but would Sansa then have to go to King's Landing? It would fit in a way because I really do want Cersei and Sansa to see each other again. Of course, there is the little issue of how Arya gets there but there has been a lot of speculation about her getting a mission to kill someone at KL so that might be it. But again all this would have to happen really fast if Aegon is going to be successful in claiming the throne but perhaps he is going to die 100 pages in so who knows.

[trio]

Because Tyrion's never going to die, and apparently the only other way out of the marriage, per the text, is for the Faith to set it aside on the grounds of non-consummation. One could imagine that if Teflon Tyrion returns to Westeros, Sansa could avoid the unpleasant parts of marriage by staying far away from him, but she could never marry anyone else. And since Sansa's nothing but marriage material (sorry to disagree, folks, but Machiavelli and Sun Tzu combined couldn't turn that girl into a playa) she becomes irrelevant.

LOL at your last line, heh heh. But I don't agree that he's Teflon. Or to clarify, I don't agree that he's going to continue to be Teflon, because yeah, he has been so far. I mean, a month ago we all thought Jon was Teflon right? A total Marty Sue that was gonna rule the NW for decades to come and be universally beloved and respected. And now he's gonna become some UnJon thing. I don't think any of the characters are needed beyond the finale, so to speak.

Why would Tyrion consider it? How would annulling his marriage to Sansa be useful to Tyrion? I also think that even though Sansa is fine with being barred from marriage at present, there will probably come a day when she wishes that she were free to marry – and at that point she will think in terms of annulment, unless Tyrion is already dead. If anyone ultimately tries to get an annulment, I'd think it'd be Sansa, instead of Tyrion, because his marriage prospects are basically nill while she might yet find someone she wants to marry.

Yeah, so say they both survive.......

I agree with you he most likely wouldn't want to marry again. He also doesn't need to, he has heirs aplenty if he does get given CR if he does ally with Dany successfully. I can see him finding the existing marriage useful as an excuse - after all, if a single man inherits CR and becomes Warden of the West, and maybe even Hand too? Then no dwarfism in the world will stop the great and the good pestering him constantly about their daughters. If he's married already then it's not awkward and he doesn't have to offend anyone valuable by refusing their dear darling.

However it's an assumption that Sansa would want to marry again. Yes, she is softhearted still - and whilst she definately doesn't want to marry right now, she's young enough for that to change. But it might not. She too, might find protection in it longterm from others that want to use her. That marriage is the only thing right now preventing her from being married off at LF's whim anytime he wants. She still has many years to go until she can be really independant - she's barely 13 now. I can't imagine her becoming like one of those kids at the Inn - horribly young but supporting themselves like adults in a wierd Dickensian way. She's going to need to live with someone older for years to come, even if something happens to LF. And everyone in a "protective" position seems to be a man, though we can hope she finds a woman to take care of her. Regardless, she might continue to be relieved that she can trot out the "I'm already married, thanks" line until she grows up properly.

Oh, and that doesn't mean she can't have lovers - and even children. After all, if Rickon gets WF and there's nothing for her children to be Lord of, then what does it matter which side of the blanket they're born on?

btw this might be really crackpot but what if Branson vision of the mountain the hound and jaime have to do with a trial by combat regarding sansa? Cersei would choose ungregor as her champ in regards to Joff and I could see Sandor coming out of the woodwork if he's still alive to fight for her. I could also see Jaime doing the same to keep his oath etc.

I don't think it's crackpot either - but I'm not sure now that we've met Robert Strong that he was being kept purely for combat purposes. He seems to be part of the mainstream Kingsguard now. That's not to say that he won't have some kick-ass fight with someone, but it might not be a formal combat situation. We were all assuming he'd be some Frankenstein thing that would be unveiled to "OOoooh!!"s at the commencement of a trial by combat, but now he's all walkin' around and people are kinda half-swallowing it, with a "Quiet lad, isn't he? Hmmm...oh well, onto other business"

But the good news is that it looks like Cersei will go up against the HS and survive, and possibly win. Yes, it was horrendous for her, but she managed it with nary a mark on her. He has a weak spot - the "women are weak" thing. Sansa would bawl her eyes out in front of him, this poor little 12 year old who didn't know what the hell was going on....he could swallow it, maybe....

[Rarm]

It might be that Lf knew all along that Sansa was going to need to be acquitted of these charges and planned on her going to trial and figured if it came to a trial by combat they had excellent odds. Gregor is believed to be dead Loras is severely injured, Jaime Is missing a hand, etc the other members of the kings guard are considered mediocre iirc. Then again he most likely counted on Cersei continuiing to screw up and bring down the regime anyway. Also to the people above who stated that Arya might be present in the whole theory I posted before because of a FM mission kudos I never even thought of that I forgot Arya was even in the dream.

In regards to Tyrions fate I think when/if he meets up with Dany she will most likely hold him as a prisoner of sorts I don't see her just allowing him to just chill on her small council without proving himself loyal/not a danger then again this is Dany and she has made worse decisions.Sometimes I honestly doubt after ADWD that he and Sansa will ever meet again. They are a world away from eachother and if the pacing continues as it is .. It just seems like a stretch to me and if they do I highly doubt they would reconcile their marriage it just doesn't fit to me I dunno. I personally think Tyrion will die before the series is done and if he doesn't .... I just don't think he deserves to be with her.I'm not a tyrion hater at all(love his chapters but not him i guess xD) and I think he deserves to be loved but he's not just ugly on the outside right now. People talk about Sansa being shallow .... But she's a twelve year old girl who grew up believing in fairytales and true love. Her parents were in love why shouldn't she hope for a man to love her like that? Yes it's unrealistic in this world and she's knows that now, but that's a normal way to think when you're a little girl. You grow out of it not everybody is born an Arya Stark ;p

Now Tyrion has just as many shallow thoughts as her, and he is a grown man. He wants women to accept him the way he is, which I understand, but he can't look past ugliness himself and is always picking apart people's looks or shortcomings. He objectifies women (along with a lot of other men) but seems to consider it just so because he has been treated like shit for how he looks. Two negatives don't make a positive. As reading material its great but it is still a major character flaw IMO. A much bigger one than a twelve year old going through a disastrous naive phase.

[Rarm]

Trio, I could see the HS showing mercy based on that , and as a punishment he may make her renounce the old gods as someone stated before.

[Maia]

Because Tyrion's never going to die, and apparently the only other way out of the marriage, per the text, is for the Faith to set it aside on the grounds of non-consummation.

People joining NW and religious orders accomplishes that as well, IIRC. Wasn't it mentioned in The Mystery Knight how Ser Quentyn (?) Ball made his wife join the silent sisters, so he'd become single and eligible for KG?

Presumably, Renly's plan to get Robert to set aside Cersei in favor of Margaery hinged on this too, since he didn't think know Robert's kids were bastards, thus non-consummation was out of question.

Oh gods, no. There should never be a Lannister at Winterfell.

Well, RL feuds were often ended/punctuated by marriages between the enemy families. Heck, both Starks and Baratheons did it in the past, didn't they? So why not? It would be only realistic. Not that I think that it should be Tyrion, mind.

Re: LF, well he worked very hard to ensure that Tyrion would be blamed for Joff's murder and executed or forced to take the Black. The scheme with Sansa's hair-net was probably mainly aimed at implicating Tyrion and Sansa's escape made him look mighty suspicious too. Tyrion's escape was an unlikely and unexpected occurrence, his avoiding people looking to win a lordship on Essos even more so. It was a very solid plan on LF's part, he was just unlucky for a change.