65 replies to this topic

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Markus, on 05 August 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

After the death of Lyonel Strong Rhaenyra married again, some Targaryen. Aegon and Viserys were the sons of this second marriage. But the sons of her first marriage were all killed.

That still doesn't add up.

The Dance supposedly lasted two years.  Aegon III was old enough to remember his mother's execution.  If Rhaenyra's husband and their children all died during the Dance, then there is no way Aegon would have been old enough to remember his mother's execution if she had him during the Dance.

[Markus]

Davos, on 05 August 2011 - 02:56 AM, said:

The Dance supposedly lasted two years.  Aegon III was old enough to remember his mother's execution.  If Rhaenyra's husband and their children all died during the Dance, then there is no way Aegon would have been old enough to remember his mother's execution if she had him during the Dance.

I didn't say that Lyonel Strong died during the Dance only that his sons died then. Given the probable age of Aegon Rhaenyra must have remarried her Targaryen husband before the Dance.

Edited by Markus, 05 August 2011 - 03:02 AM.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Okay, that makes sense.

[Fire Eater]

bens, on 04 August 2011 - 06:01 PM, said:

He's expressed more discomfort than the other Reach lords in the past about the murder of Elia and her children, and he hated Tywin Lannister's sense of "justice". Additionally, he and Mace Tyrell were sent off to besiege Storm's End, but he never came back, while Mace and all of the other Reach Lords (except the recluse Lord Hightower) have converged on King's Landing and begun ruling. He hasn't been seen on screen since Margaery and Tommen were wed and is not participating in the Small Council otherwise taken over by Reach Lords.

The very fact that he seems to be leading the siege at Storm's End, combined with Jon Connington's odd confidence in taking the castle, suggests that he's a supporter.

Where did you read that?

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

MinotaurWarrior, on 04 August 2011 - 04:49 PM, said:

As for the specific friends, I have a sneaking suspicion it's the Hightowers. They're noted by Randyll Tarly as being the wealthiest house in Westeros, and yet its the Tarlys who are the real land military power in the Reach.

Perhaps, if it turns out that Margery lives and the Hightowers are the only friends of the golden company, they might take Samwell hostage and use him to bring the Tarlies onto team Aegon?

We know that Randyll was willing to murder Sam; holding the latter hostage would provide absolutely zero leverage over ol' Lord Tarly. Not that the HIghtowers would know that, but still.

As far as the Florent connection goes, I don't think Randyll's familial bonds would sway him one way or the other here either. I thought this was pretty clearly shown in ACoK after he captures Renly's stores and condemns so many Florent men-at-arms to death. Some of these guys were probably at his wedding!

I think the role of exiled House Florent will be to support Edric Storm (whose mother was a Florent) as the legitimized Lord of Storm's End. The Hightowers though, I can totally see supporting Aegon & Co.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

I think that the Florents are pretty much done unless Stannis wins.

As you say Aeron, Randyll having a Florent wife didn't stop him from massacring the Florent men at Bitterbridge.  If Randyll was really tied to the Florents he would have joined his father-in-law Alester in switching sides to Stannis.

Alekyne Florent has nothing to offer Aegon, he's a powerless refugee in the Hightower.  All of the remaining Florent swords are with Stannis freezing their asses off.

Connington said that the best lands and castles would go to Golden Company men, and Brightwater is one of the richest prizes up for grabs.  I imagine that if Aegon wins Brightwater will be gifted to one of the Golden Company captains.

Florent is not worth trying to win the allegiance of.  Hightower, on the other hand, is.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Davos, on 07 September 2011 - 12:03 PM, said:

I think that the Florents are pretty much done unless Stannis wins.

As you say Aeron, Randyll having a Florent wife didn't stop him from massacring the Florent men at Bitterbridge.  If Randyll was really tied to the Florents he would have joined his father-in-law Alester in switching sides to Stannis.

Alekyne Florent has nothing to offer Aegon, he's a powerless refugee in the Hightower.  All of the remaining Florent swords are with Stannis freezing their asses off.

Connington said that the best lands and castles would go to Golden Company men, and Brightwater is one of the richest prizes up for grabs.  I imagine that if Aegon wins Brightwater will be gifted to one of the Golden Company captains.

Florent is not worth trying to win the allegiance of.  Hightower, on the other hand, is.

The problem with this is that Brightwater keep has been granted to Garlan Tyrell.  I don't see this being a part of any bargain Aegon makes with the Tyrell's.  He would likely have to defeat and attaint them.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Stallion That Mounts Texas, on 07 September 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

The problem with this is that Brightwater keep has been granted to Garlan Tyrell.  I don't see this being a part of any bargain Aegon makes with the Tyrell's.  He would likely have to defeat and attaint them.

True, if the Tyrells switch sides to Aegon then Garlan keeps Brightwater.  I was speaking of the case that Aegon would defeat the Tyrells outright.

Either way, my main point stands, which is the only way the Florents stand a chance of getting Brightwater back is if Stannis wins.

[Lord Varys]

Lord Lyonel Strong was Rhaenyra Targaryen's first Prince consort. He fathered three sons on her, and all of them were men grown and lived and fought and died during the Dance of Dragons.
Rhaenyra's second Prince Consort was a Targaryen himself, and he was the father of Aegon III and Viserys II.

As to Lyonel Strong, since he was Hand of the King under Viserys I, and most likely a much older man than Rhaenyra - he died of natural causes, most likely. I strongly suspect that his mother was a Targaryen as well. That would explain both - how he became Hand of the King, and how he ended up being married by the Viserys's I heiress. An entire generation of Targaryen princes and princess is lost to us, since Viserys I is the the eldest grandson, no son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. We don't know how many children Jaehaerys had, nor do we know how many grandchildren he had, but I would not be surprised at all if a younger daughter of Jaehaerys was married to Lyonel Strong's father. That might also explain how Ser Lucamore Strong ended up in the KG. Although his lustiness only became apparent later on, it would not surprise me if he got his place among the White Swords because he belonged to a noble house with close ties to the Iron Throne...

I was the guy who came up with the theory about Mathis Rowan, by the way. The man has revealed that he is still disgusted by the murder of the Targaryen children, and he showed his disgust in Tywin's presence. He is no pragmatist, he does take this matter seriously. And he might very well be the fourth most powerful lord in the Reach - behind the Tyrells, the Hightowers, and the Redwynes. If the Golden Company has an ally in the Reach, it should be a somebody important, not some minor lordling.

And Lord Mathis is well-liked and respected. People listen to the man, even people outside of the Reach, and even people more powerful than he is. We see this when Catelyn talks to him while visiting Renly.

As to the loyalty of the lords of the Reach in general, there has to be a reason why Mace Tyrell remained loyal to Aerys until the very end. Since we know that the Tyrell family is nothing if not pragmatic, deep devotion or a sense of loyalty can't have been the reason why they remained stalwart Targaryen loyalists. Especially as Lady Olenna, who has already revealed that she is not exactly a Targaryen fan in the depth of her heart, most likely was no less influential back then as she is now. My guess would be that many lords of the Reach were (and still are) Targaryen loyalists. If that's the case, this would explain why Mace never considered switching sides. If his bannermen would not have followed him, or if they had actively turned against him if he had declared for Robert, it would make sense to remain on the Targaryen side.

The Rowans could have been one of those houses, I guess.

As to the Florents - I'm not that sure about Randyll's Florent wife (although it's still possible that this enters into the equation if Randyll was planning to betray the Tyrells), but Lord Leyton Hightower is married to Lady Rhea Florent Hightower right now. Lord Alekyne is not so much a refugee than a guest at the Hightower, I assume. Lady Rhea is not going to deliver her nephew to certain death, I imagine. And if the Hightowers would consider an alliance with Aegon, I guess the fact how the Tyrells treated House Florent - a very noble and very old house of the Reach - during the recent war, might motivate some houses who are not so happy with the Tyrell rule to follow their lead.

Oldtown is already threatened by the Ironborn. If Doran was to indicate to Lord Leyton (after he has declared openly for Aegon, of course) that he would send a Dornish army across the mountains to sack and conquer Oldtown, the Hightowers might very well conclude that Aegon VI Targaryen would make a much finer king than 'Tommen I'. The Tyrells are in no position right now to defend or protect Oldtown and its citizens...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Lord Varys, on 07 September 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

Lord Lyonel Strong was Rhaenyra Targaryen's first Prince consort. He fathered three sons on her, and all of them were men grown and lived and fought and died during the Dance of Dragons.
Rhaenyra's second Prince Consort was a Targaryen himself, and he was the father of Aegon III and Viserys II.

As to Lyonel Strong, since he was Hand of the King under Viserys I, and most likely a much older man than Rhaenyra - he died of natural causes, most likely. I strongly suspect that his mother was a Targaryen as well. That would explain both - how he became Hand of the King, and how he ended up being married by the Viserys's I heiress. An entire generation of Targaryen princes and princess is lost to us, since Viserys I is the the eldest grandson, no son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. We don't know how many children Jaehaerys had, nor do we know how many grandchildren he had, but I would not be surprised at all if a younger daughter of Jaehaerys was married to Lyonel Strong's father. That might also explain how Ser Lucamore Strong ended up in the KG. Although his lustiness only became apparent later on, it would not surprise me if he got his place among the White Swords because he belonged to a noble house with close ties to the Iron Throne...

I was the guy who came up with the theory about Mathis Rowan, by the way. The man has revealed that he is still disgusted by the murder of the Targaryen children, and he showed his disgust in Tywin's presence. He is no pragmatist, he does take this matter seriously. And he might very well be the fourth most powerful lord in the Reach - behind the Tyrells, the Hightowers, and the Redwynes. If the Golden Company has an ally in the Reach, it should be a somebody important, not some minor lordling.

And Lord Mathis is well-liked and respected. People listen to the man, even people outside of the Reach, and even people more powerful than he is. We see this when Catelyn talks to him while visiting Renly.

As to the loyalty of the lords of the Reach in general, there has to be a reason why Mace Tyrell remained loyal to Aerys until the very end. Since we know that the Tyrell family is nothing if not pragmatic, deep devotion or a sense of loyalty can't have been the reason why they remained stalwart Targaryen loyalists. Especially as Lady Olenna, who has already revealed that she is not exactly a Targaryen fan in the depth of her heart, most likely was no less influential back then as she is now. My guess would be that many lords of the Reach were (and still are) Targaryen loyalists. If that's the case, this would explain why Mace never considered switching sides. If his bannermen would not have followed him, or if they had actively turned against him if he had declared for Robert, it would make sense to remain on the Targaryen side.

The Rowans could have been one of those houses, I guess.

As to the Florents - I'm not that sure about Randyll's Florent wife (although it's still possible that this enters into the equation if Randyll was planning to betray the Tyrells), but Lord Leyton Hightower is married to Lady Rhea Florent Hightower right now. Lord Alekyne is not so much a refugee than a guest at the Hightower, I assume. Lady Rhea is not going to deliver her nephew to certain death, I imagine. And if the Hightowers would consider an alliance with Aegon, I guess the fact how the Tyrells treated House Florent - a very noble and very old house of the Reach - during the recent war, might motivate some houses who are not so happy with the Tyrell rule to follow their lead.

Oldtown is already threatened by the Ironborn. If Doran was to indicate to Lord Leyton (after he has declared openly for Aegon, of course) that he would send a Dornish army across the mountains to sack and conquer Oldtown, the Hightowers might very well conclude that Aegon VI Targaryen would make a much finer king than 'Tommen I'. The Tyrells are in no position right now to defend or protect Oldtown and its citizens...

The only time I remember Mathis Rowan showing is in a Storm of Swords when Tyrion said he looked "fit to gag" at the fact that the Lannisters were giving Prince Doran justice for the murder of Elia and her children.  He did not openly voice an opinion or object.  I'm not sure how much we can take from that.
The Hightowers are said to be as rich as the Lannisters and able to muster more than three times the men as any other Tyrell bannerman.  In addition, Lord Redwyn's fleet is on the way to engage the iron born and Willas and Garlan are said to be able to raise 20,000 swords pretty quickly.  The ironmen cannot take Old Town or the Reach without dragons.

[Winterfell is Burning]

About Tarly- Wouldn't the Florent's lands and castle go to his wife (a Florent) if the rest of the family was declared as traitors, but were given to Garlan instead? That surely is reason enough for him to be angry at the Tyrells.

[Biffyc7]

Ser Bronn o the Blackwater, on 04 August 2011 - 04:08 PM, said:

I hope so. I don't know why, but I rather like Randyll Tarly.

The only one who beat Robert during the rebellion... What's not to like?

[Davos' Middle Finger]

Winterfell is Burning, on 07 September 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

About Tarly- Wouldn't the Florent's lands and castle go to his wife (a Florent) if the rest of the family was declared as traitors, but were given to Garlan instead? That surely is reason enough for him to be angry at the Tyrells.

Randyll's wife Melessa was in fact the second in line to Brightwater Keep, after Alekyne.  Randyll would have definitely have been dissapointed that he wasn't granted Brightwater.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Davos, on 07 September 2011 - 06:21 PM, said:

Randyll's wife Melessa was in fact the second in line to Brightwater Keep, after Alekyne.  Randyll would have definitely have been dissapointed that he wasn't granted Brightwater.

Yeah, and Mace Tyrell loves to get credit for that one victory in the war, which was really the result of his work. He's probably not too happy about it too.

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

What about Mace's uncle, Ser Moryn Tyrell? He's the Lord Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown. If the Hightowers go against House Tyrell, they may have to fight their own watchmen unless they first deal with Ser Moryn somehow.

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

Ser_Aeron_Connel, on 05 March 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

What about Mace's uncle, Ser Moryn Tyrell? He's the Lord Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown. If the Hightowers go against House Tyrell, they may have to fight their own watchmen unless they first deal with Ser Moryn somehow.

Accidents happen...

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

i think Tarly is the one JON CON is talking about.Tarly must be somewhat pissed at Mace that he wasn't given brightwater Fox keep even though it is rightfully his wives.

[Silent_Hero]

Biffyc7, on 07 September 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

The only one who beat Robert during the rebellion... What's not to like?

It wasn't really a defeat though,it was inconclusive.

[Blackfish17]

Fire Eater, on 07 August 2011 - 01:55 PM, said:

Where did you read that?

As far as I read in the abstract of Arianne's chapter, Haldon Halfmaester told the Dornish princess that the conquest of Storm's End was a bloody one. I don't think Rowan bent the knee to a pretender he and almost all the lords of Westeros considered to be death since the sack of King's Landing by the Lannisters. I think he might have been captured, he is one of the greatest bannermen of the Reach, and there must be still some swords at Goldengrove.

Concerning House Peake, they were great lords in the Reach during the reign of Daeron II, when they sided with the Black dragon and lost two of their three castles. Gormon Peake even lost his head at Whitewalls during the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. I think his heirs might have been banished from the succession of Starpike, and a cousin must have inherited their last remaining castle for his descendants, something like the case of Jon Connington. Laswell seems very sure of his contacts at The Reach. His ancestor was a man of great prestige, one of the greatest knights of Westeros during the Blackfyre rebellion, and the man who slew Lord Hayford -the loyalist Hand of the King -at the Redgrass Field. As he claims, they might still have some allies at the Reach. As far as I have heard, no army from Oldtown has helped Lord Tyrell in his campaigns, and most of the war expenses have fell in Houses Rowan, Redwyne, Tarly, and Oakheart, as well as the Shield Islands (now lost).

Considering which Tyrell bannermen might betray his Lord, I think Randyll Tarly is the one. He was a noted loyalist to Mad Aerys, and even slew Lord Cafferen as a turncloak and sent his head as trophy to King's Landing. He might have not forgotten his past allegiances to the Dragon Kings. Arwyn Oakheart also could betray her liege lord. She despised the Lannisters, and she might bear some grudge against them after her little Arys was killed at Dorne by "Darkstar." Who knows...

Concerning Alekyne Florent, he might be gentle to Sam, or not. That we shall see. I only hope Garlan expels the Krakens from the Shield Islands, and that Oldtown be spared from any raid from the ironborn. The city is well defended, and his lord has started to move towards the strengthening of the defenses with his sons. Also, we must remember that Brightwater keep is still being defended by Ser Colin Florent and the remaining swords of House Florent, and while the ironborn raid the coasts of the Reach, it is probable there should be some hope for the Florents.

[Vhikthor]

Hi.
Excuse me, i am a spanish fan and i am doing a compilation about all the Hands of the King. I have consulted the wiki of westeros to compare with my books, but i am unable to find where is the info about Lyonel Strong .

I was confident about knowing the last updates and excerpts from THE WINDS OF WINTER or the news of a WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, but this topic eludes me.

Can someone help me where that comes from? it this info canon?

Thank you!