161 replies to this topic

[thesheik]

Cersei is constantly having flashbacks to Maggy the Frog's prophecy, particularly the bit about a young queen taking everything she loves away from her (to that effect).

This has probably been covered, but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, Cersei obviously thinks its Margaery, but my first thought was Dany.

Is there any evidence either way, or just conjecture as to their respective futures?

[Cydal]

thesheik, on 04 August 2011 - 03:23 PM, said:

Cersei is constantly having flashbacks to Maggy the Frog's prophecy, particularly the bit about a young queen taking everything she loves away from her (to that effect).

This has probably been covered, but I couldn't find it.

Anyway, Cersei obviously thinks its Margaery, but my first thought was Dany.

Is there any evidence either way, or just conjecture as to their respective futures?

Since we have no reason to think Dany is coming by soon, it could as well be Margery. Cersei's actions could lead to a break down of their alliance with the Tyrells and destroy her. or it could be Sansa

[MinotaurWarrior]

I had a crackpot theory that perhaps, if Aerys had an affair with Tywin's wife (as Barristan hints) then Dany could actually be the Valonquar and the younger queen, assuming valonquar is another genderless Valyrian word.

[Marakesh]

Even if Valonquar is genderless the prophecy says "his hands". So, no sisters need apply I think.

Sansa being the more beautiful queen is one of those things that wouldn't have been my first guess but I like more with time. Look at how Lysa relates with her - its like she has this way of making older women nervous. I could see a Snow White theme continuing with her, especially with all the emotions she and Cersei must have for each other. Maergery is a more clear-cut possibility, and Dany I don't like in this role at all. She would only fulfill the prophecy in a technical sense as she and Cersei have little to no past. So, with no real evidence to go by (as in most of these discussions) I pick the choice that would be the best for drama.

[Cydal]

Marakesh, on 04 August 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Even if Valonquar is genderless the prophecy says "his hands". So, no sisters need apply I think.

Sansa being the more beautiful queen is one of those things that wouldn't have been my first guess but I like more with time. Look at how Lysa relates with her - its like she has this way of making older women nervous. I could see a Snow White theme continuing with her, especially with all the emotions she and Cersei must have for each other. Maergery is a more clear-cut possibility, and Dany I don't like in this role at all. She would only fulfill the prophecy in a technical sense as she and Cersei have little to no past. So, with no real evidence to go by (as in most of these discussions) I pick the choice that would be the best for drama.

Actually i think with Cersei framing Marge & all, there will be drama. The only thing is that Marge on her own right is not very powerful &/influential. The reason i like the Sansa approach is she takes control of the armies of the Vale and with all the politricks she would have learned from LF. ooooo yea

I think she made Lysa nervous cos she looked like her mom that always seemed to get everything she didn't.

[longlivestark]

Dany was what i thought at first when I read it, but I really would prefer Sansa. After everything Cersei did to Sansa, it would be Karma and justice if it were Sansa who was the younger queen. Margery is possible in the "this happened because you caused it to happen by trying to stop it from happening" which basically means the only reason Margery became the younger queen was because of Cersei trying to stop it. Out of all the possibilities Dany is the one I like least, not because of my feelings toward her character, but because Cersei has never done anything to Dany and Dany has no real reason to want Cersei dead other then the fact that she is in the way of her getting the throne she wants. When Cersei is defeated I want it to be caused by someone she screwed over, like Sansa, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Margery, Catelyn....

Edited by longlivestark, 04 August 2011 - 06:46 PM.

[Aganerral]

Given how many people in ADwD kept talking about Dany as the most beautiful woman in the world, GRRM certainly seems to be trying to push the idea that it would be Dany as the younger, more beautiful queen.

[Alexia]

Marakesh, on 04 August 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Even if Valonquar is genderless the prophecy says "his hands". So, no sisters need apply I think.

Actually, that word can be genderless and in Spanish it is.  You would say "sus manos" regardless of whether they belonged to a man or a woman.  So inconclusive.

Aganerral, on 04 August 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Given how many people in ADwD kept talking about Dany as the most beautiful woman in the world, GRRM certainly seems to be trying to push the idea that it would be Dany as the younger, more beautiful queen.

Has anyone who has actually seen her said that afterwards (which I guess would be Quentyn and Ser Grandfather)?

I hope that the Younger Queen is Sansa.  The history between Sansa and Cersei would make this a much more interesting turn of events.

[longlivestark]

Aganerral, on 04 August 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Given how many people in ADwD kept talking about Dany as the most beautiful woman in the world, GRRM certainly seems to be trying to push the idea that it would be Dany as the younger, more beautiful queen.

She may be beautiful, but it does not make the story very compelling, Cersei has done nothing to Dany and Dany does not know Cersei exists. Dany talks about hating the Lannisters in general, particularly Jaime and probably Tywin, but Cersei means nothing to Dany. Also Sansa is called beautiful more then once in many of her chapters and by many people in other chapters.

[Gemini]

Aganerral, on 04 August 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Given how many people in ADwD kept talking about Dany as the most beautiful woman in the world, GRRM certainly seems to be trying to push the idea that it would be Dany as the younger, more beautiful queen.

I think it's quite possible that's a red herring to make us think it's Dany.  Besides, plenty of time has already been spent mentioning how beautiful Sansa is.

[littlespider]

I know there've been various candidates proposed for this younger queen, so this is probably floating around somewhere already.

Myrcella, anyone? Especially if Dorne continues to support her claim above Tommen. However, I am flaking on the Dornish position on Myrcella as of the end of aDwD right now. I plowed through the darn book so fast and now have to go back and do a detail-obsessed reread!

I think Dany, Marg, and Sansa are great candidates, but it would be extra-poignant and tragic for Cersei if it was her own daughter replacing her.

[Kissed.By.Fire]

littlespider, on 04 August 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

Myrcella, anyone? Especially if Dorne continues to support her claim above Tommen. However, I am flaking on the Dornish position on Myrcella as of the end of aDwD right now. I plowed through the darn book so fast and now have to go back and do a detail-obsessed reread!

I think Dany, Marg, and Sansa are great candidates, but it would be extra-poignant and tragic for Cersei if it was her own daughter replacing her.

I doubt it is Myrcella.  Her faces gets cut up by Darkstar, and Arianne's plot to back Myrcella as heir to Westeros is smashed before it can truly begin.

[littlespider]

Kissed.By.Fire, on 04 August 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

I doubt it is Myrcella.  Her faces gets cut up by Darkstar, and Arianne's plot to back Myrcella as heir to Westeros is smashed before it can truly begin.

Makes sense. My mistake; must finish my reread!

[milliniar]

the question to me right now is the prophecy said that her kids would all have crowns. I don't think the plot to declare that failed would count.

[Faint]

The prophecy is obviously referring to Daenerys. It can't be anybody who Cersei might even suspect it would be and I'm pretty sure she is going to take it into her head that the prophecy might refer to Sansa in the next book when the latter rises up via Littlefinger.

[Amae Koromo]

I would be kind of pissed off if it is Daenerys.

If she is the younger queen and her prophecies are right, she will defeat:

- The Others
- Stannis
- Young Griffin
- Cersei

meaning she would be the one defeating all major factions right now by herself. Might as well defeat Euron as well.

I hate dragons so much

Edited by Amae Koromo, 04 August 2011 - 08:54 PM.

[Faint]

Actually, none of the prophecies have her specifically defeating the Others. Indeed, given the information we were made privy to in Melisandre's chapter and in Jon's final chapter, the latter might actually be the better candidate where credit being given for defeating the Others is concerned.

The other thing is this: If the Mirri Maz Duur prophecy is coming true, which certainly seems to be the case, that might indicate that Daenerys will not have much time to savor her victories -- so really, her fate isn't all that great.

And for what it's worth, I don't think she'll be the one to take down Euron.

Lastly, as for Cersei, it's kind of peculiar to categorize her downfall as Daenerys' doing. Really, when it comes down to it, Cersei is her own downfall. This will really kick in at the end when it turns out it wasn't Margaery or Sansa that was the Queen who was going to overthrow her and it wasn't Tyrion that was the brother that was going to kill her. That's the whole thing about her prophecy -- she thinks it means Tyrion and Sansa or Margaery, when it really means Jaime and Daenerys (neither of who she suspects in the slightest).

[Amae Koromo]

Sualk, on 04 August 2011 - 09:06 PM, said:

Actually, none of the prophecies have her specifically defeating the Others. Indeed, given the information we were made privy to in Melisandre's chapter and in Jon's final chapter, the latter might actually be the better candidate where credit being given for defeating the Others is concerned.

The other thing is this: If the Mirri Maz Duur prophecy is coming true, which certainly seems to be the case, that might indicate that Daenerys will not have much time to savor her victories -- so really, her fate isn't all that great.

And for what it's worth, I don't think she'll be the one to take down Euron.

Lastly, as for Cersei, it's kind of peculiar to categorize her downfall as Daenerys' doing. Really, when it comes down to it, Cersei is her own downfall. This will really kick in at the end when it turns out it wasn't Margaery or Sansa that was the Queen who was going to overthrow her and it wasn't Tyrion that was the brother that was going to kill her. That's the whole thing about her prophecy -- she thinks it means Tyrion and Sansa or Margaery, when it really means Jaime and Daenerys (neither of who she suspects in the slightest).

Wasn't there something about her fighting the Others with her dragons or something?
And what do you mean by Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy?

[iamthedave]

Alexia, on 04 August 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

Has anyone who has actually seen her said that afterwards (which I guess would be Quentyn and Ser Grandfather)?

I hope that the Younger Queen is Sansa.  The history between Sansa and Cersei would make this a much more interesting turn of events.

Weeeeeell... as much as I hate to speak the name... Daario Naharis.

It's a tough thing to ask though, Alex: we get almost no perspectives on Dany. Certainly she's not short of people praising her for her looks, and they're REAL eager to do it, more so than for any other character I can think of. It seems a fair bet to say she's up there with the most beautiful women in the world, if not necessarily head and shoulders above all the other fine, fine ladies sprinkled about the setting.

She does lack the largest breasts anyone has ever seen and big black nipples, though

[iamthedave]

Alexia, on 04 August 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

Has anyone who has actually seen her said that afterwards (which I guess would be Quentyn and Ser Grandfather)?

I hope that the Younger Queen is Sansa.  The history between Sansa and Cersei would make this a much more interesting turn of events.

Weeeeeell... as much as I hate to speak the name... Daario Naharis.

It's a tough thing to ask though, Alex: we get almost no perspectives on Dany. Certainly she's not short of people praising her for her looks, and they're REAL eager to do it, more so than for any other character I can think of. It seems a fair bet to say she's up there with the most beautiful women in the world, if not necessarily head and shoulders above all the other fine, fine ladies sprinkled about the setting.

She does lack the largest breasts anyone has ever seen and big black nipples, though