59 replies to this topic

[Shaggydog Stark]

Weasel_Soup, on 13 October 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

Imo, Pycelle lied about the Moon Tea or Margaery did not want it for herself.   Margaery may or may not have had sex before but I find it hard to believe that she was some layabout whore.  Margaery's grandmother is a sharp little thing and most likely would have warned her gandchild about the perils of being a wanton.  There are also plausible reasons laid out in the book for Margaery lack of a Hymen.  She actually did have sex with Renly on the night of there wedding or her Hymen was destroyed by riding a horse.  I also believe Cersei is a character that does not percieve things correctly most of the time.  She constantly over-values herself and people she favors while disdaining anybody she does not like.  If Cersei think Margaery is some vapid little girl she is probably pretty close to the opposite of that imo.

This might be a possible spoiler for those still reading the book.

Spoiler

I just posted this on another thread. Why would Margaery go to Pycelle for the moontea when she has her own maester at hand? We discover this when Loras is wounded and she decides to send him to tend to Loras's wounds. I would think that she would go to her own maester for the tea instead of Pycelle who everyone knows is a Lannister man. Unless, she wants Cersei to know about the moontea.

[KayteStone]

Shaggydog Stark, on 14 October 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

This might be a possible spoiler for those still reading the book.

Spoiler

I just posted this on another thread. Why would Margaery go to Pycelle for the moontea when she has her own maester at hand? We discover this when Loras is wounded and she decides to send him to tend to Loras's wounds. I would think that she would go to her own maester for the tea instead of Pycelle who everyone knows is a Lannister man. Unless, she wants Cersei to know about the moontea.

I think you're on to something. For the sake of also not giving away any possible spoilers:

Spoiler

I think the Tyrells played this game and executed it brilliantly. My suspicion is that Margaery knows how weak-willed Pycelle is and was purposely asking him for the moon tea knowing he would tell Cersei. As far as whether or not she's a "maiden"--there could be some credence to the theory that she and her cousins broke their hymens horseback riding--I forget which book it was, but there was a reference to this regarding high born ladies at some point in the series. I also think Margaery was smart enough to know what Cersei was attempting to do, having Kettleblack always lurking around and coming on to her. I haven't read ADWD yet, but I would be very surprised if the Queen of Thorns didn't have a part of this, at the very least.

And am I the only one who thinks that perhaps Cersei was a little quick to trust Taena as much as she did?

[Shaggydog Stark]

rockethonkie, on 20 October 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think you're on to something. For the sake of also not giving away any possible spoilers:

Spoiler

I think the Tyrells played this game and executed it brilliantly. My suspicion is that Margaery knows how weak-willed Pycelle is and was purposely asking him for the moon tea knowing he would tell Cersei. As far as whether or not she's a "maiden"--there could be some credence to the theory that she and her cousins broke their hymens horseback riding--I forget which book it was, but there was a reference to this regarding high born ladies at some point in the series. I also think Margaery was smart enough to know what Cersei was attempting to do, having Kettleblack always lurking around and coming on to her. I haven't read ADWD yet, but I would be very surprised if the Queen of Thorns didn't have a part of this, at the very least.

And am I the only one who thinks that perhaps Cersei was a little quick to trust Taena as much as she did?

I agree to some extent but here is what I think happened; and this all conjecture:

Spoiler

I think that the Tyrells want to remove Cersei from power because she is messing up the ambitions of the Tyrells. They want to rule through Tommen and Cersei wants to rule herself. So they need to get rid of her, but how?

Margaery is the queen, as much as Cersei hates to admit it, and plotting against Margaery is as treasonous as plotting against the king.

I agree with you that Taena is a Tyrell mole. She befriends Cersei by falsely accusing Cersei's maid Senelle of spying on her. She starts to gain Cersei's trust, how Cersei could trust her is beyond me. Taena goes back to the Tyrells and tells them that Cersei is trying to get Osfryd to sleep with Margaery to accuse her of treason. Margaery plays along buying time. In the meantime the Tyrells befriend Pycelle.

Pycelle is fed up with Cersei and her idiocies and decides to play along. Finally Cersei gets fed up and tells Osfryd to go confess to the High Speton. The High Septon arrests Margaery, they do the vaginal test and discover that Margaery's maidenhead is in fact in tact. So now they are willing to listen to Margaery.

Margaery tells them how Cersei has been plotting against her. The High Septon believes Margaery since she is a maid and decides to help by playing along. He tortures Osfryd and gets the whole truth from him. I will stop here because I have read ADWD so I won't give anything away.

[KayteStone]

Shaggydog Stark, on 20 October 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

I agree to some extent but here is what I think happened; and this all conjecture:

Spoiler

I think that the Tyrells want to remove Cersei from power because she is messing up the ambitions of the Tyrells. They want to rule through Tommen and Cersei wants to rule herself. So they need to get rid of her, but how?

Margaery is the queen, as much as Cersei hates to admit it, and plotting against Margaery is as treasonous as plotting against the king.

I agree with you that Taena is a Tyrell mole. She befriends Cersei by falsely accusing Cersei's maid Senelle of spying on her. She starts to gain Cersei's trust, how Cersei could trust her is beyond me. Taena goes back to the Tyrells and tells them that Cersei is trying to get Osfryd to sleep with Margaery to accuse her of treason. Margaery plays along buying time. In the meantime the Tyrells befriend Pycelle.

Pycelle is fed up with Cersei and her idiocies and decides to play along. Finally Cersei gets fed up and tells Osfryd to go confess to the High Speton. The High Septon arrests Margaery, they do the vaginal test and discover that Margaery's maidenhead is in fact in tact. So now they are willing to listen to Margaery.

Margaery tells them how Cersei has been plotting against her. The High Septon believes Margaery since she is a maid and decides to help by playing along. He tortures Osfryd and gets the whole truth from him. I will stop here because I have read ADWD so I won't give anything away.

I like this theory; it's clean and answers all of the right questions. I never knew why Cersei trusted Taena so easily, either, except for pure hubris. She seems to think others, most especially women, lack the wits to play her, all the while not realizing that she may be getting played herself. Granted, she does have a healthy dose of paranoia about Margaery, namely due to Maggy the Frog, but I think she views herself as mentally superior to other women. If I remember correctly, she suspects Mace Tyrell of having a role in Joffrey's death, but not Lady Olenna.

[khaleesiStormborn]

I think that Taena is informing the Tyrells about everything Cersi does. Cersi never gets that close to anyone, so I pretty much thought Taena a rat early on. I think the whole thing with Loras is a lie, he is prob gonna get to Kings Landing just in time for his sisters 'trial by combat', I think the Tyrells def had someone getting moon tea from Pycelle to make it look like Margery just to at the last minute have someone else (like Taena) say it was for her. It's also suspicious that Cersi asked Taena twice to bring her son to court, but Taena still has'nt.......wonder why?!?!?!

[Antonius Pius]

<p>

Weasel_Soup, on 13 October 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

There are also plausible reasons laid out in the book for Margaery lack of a Hymen.  She actually did have sex with Renly on the night of there wedding or her Hymen was destroyed by riding a horse.

But the Tyrells maintain that the marriage to Renly wasn't consummated, so they can't use that as an alibi without harming their own position.

Weasel_Soup, on 13 October 2011 - 02:49 PM, said:

I also believe Cersei is a character that does not percieve things correctly most of the time.  She constantly over-values herself and people she favors while disdaining anybody she does not like.  If Cersei think Margaery is some vapid little girl she is probably pretty close to the opposite of that imo.

I find it strange that Margaery would go and ask for moon tea if it was to be for herself.

[Awakened Edna]

When Pycelle admits to providing Moon Tea to Margery, Cersei interrupts him before he can complete the explanation.  She stops him mid-sentence when he is saing "for..." when she says, "I know what Moon Tea is for."  So it sounds like Pycelle was going to explain that it was for someone else or for something else.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Laura Cox Witherington, on 27 October 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:

When Pycelle admits to providing Moon Tea to Margery, Cersei interrupts him before he can complete the explanation.  She stops him mid-sentence when he is saing "for..." when she says, "I know what Moon Tea is for."  So it sounds like Pycelle was going to explain that it was for someone else or for something else.

Yeah that is my opinion as well. Another one of Cersei's faults, she thinks she knows everything so she never listens.

[Bob Baratheon]

God i love this forum, this thread just opened up so many possibilities that i missed out on! eh, these books get better and better! I know its off topic but just had to voice this!

[Nahlim]

You see, THIS is one of the reasons I loved aFfC! I absolutely love the Tyrell - Lannister dance. xD

I thought form the start that this was all a Tyrell game. I think they manipulated Cersei perfectly. They knew from the start the type of player Cersei is. They knew that to expect.

As for Taena, I don't understand why Cersei trusted her. She was clearly a spy! Unless GRRM has something else in mind...

[dark sister]

Awakened Edna, on 27 October 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:

When Pycelle admits to providing Moon Tea to Margery, Cersei interrupts him before he can complete the explanation.  She stops him mid-sentence when he is saing "for..." when she says, "I know what Moon Tea is for."  So it sounds like Pycelle was going to explain that it was for someone else or for something else.

The whole "moon tea fiasco" was very perplexing to me, but there is one thing that Cersei thinks at Tommen's wedding which niggles at me.  She's watching Loras and Margaery dance, and she's hating how alike they look, and thinks something like "maybe a ripe crop of pimples would make them more humble". We know that moon tea is the medieval equivalent of the pill.  Sometimes teenage girls go on the pill in order to clear up really bad acne. Mace Tyrell wears a thick beard, so we can't see any acne scars. Maybe Loras and Margaery started taking moon tea when they became adolescents in order to forestall bad genetic acne. That was my thought, when Cersei cut off Pycelle.

Also, I believe Taena is supposed to be a modern-day parallel to the "Lace Serpent" that is mentioned in one of the Brienne chapters.  She was a Myrish wife of a Darklyn lord who brought about the downfall of that House with her scheming.  Taena obviously wants more for her lord and son, but won't bring him to court -- I wouldn't either, if I were her.

[Gryz]

Birth control pills have an effect on skin, because they contain hormones. I can see how a herbal product might have the effect of a contraceptive. Or the effect of a morning-after pill (more likely). But I can't see how a herbal tea has hormones in it. If Moon Tea would have both effects as the pill, contraceptive *and* skin, that would be a huge coincedence. So your theory seems unlikely to me.

[The Shadowbinder]

dark sister, on 25 December 2011 - 08:54 PM, said:

The whole "moon tea fiasco" was very perplexing to me, but there is one thing that Cersei thinks at Tommen's wedding which niggles at me.  She's watching Loras and Margaery dance, and she's hating how alike they look, and thinks something like "maybe a ripe crop of pimples would make them more humble". We know that moon tea is the medieval equivalent of the pill.  Sometimes teenage girls go on the pill in order to clear up really bad acne. Mace Tyrell wears a thick beard, so we can't see any acne scars. Maybe Loras and Margaery started taking moon tea when they became adolescents in order to forestall bad genetic acne. That was my thought, when Cersei cut off Pycelle.

I like that theory... It's pretty interesting and does explain all you mentioned. Only thing is that I think Margarey would still get it from her own maester or through a proxy to avoid the situation she's currently in (unless that was intended too).

And maybe the hormone changing chemicals in the moontea had a effect on pre-pubescent Loras as well... a gay effect.

[The Shadowbinder]

Gryz, on 28 December 2011 - 08:13 AM, said:

Birth control pills have an effect on skin, because they contain hormones. I can see how a herbal product might have the effect of a contraceptive. Or the effect of a morning-after pill (more likely). But I can't see how a herbal tea has hormones in it. If Moon Tea would have both effects as the pill, contraceptive *and* skin, that would be a huge coincedence. So your theory seems unlikely to me.

Just to play the devils advocate I'd like to point out that we don't know exactly how moon tea is made... It sounds herbal but we don't know. It could in fact contain hormones in the form of ground up animal parts - which is disgusting but could be the case.

[zmflavius]

The Shadowbinder, on 30 December 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

Just to play the devils advocate I'd like to point out that we don't know exactly how moon tea is made... It sounds herbal but we don't know. It could in fact contain hormones in the form of ground up animal parts - which is disgusting but could be the case.

But we do get what seems to be a list of its ingredients:

moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal.

[dark sister]

Gryz, on 28 December 2011 - 08:13 AM, said:

Birth control pills have an effect on skin, because they contain hormones. I can see how a herbal product might have the effect of a contraceptive. Or the effect of a morning-after pill (more likely). But I can't see how a herbal tea has hormones in it. If Moon Tea would have both effects as the pill, contraceptive *and* skin, that would be a huge coincedence. So your theory seems unlikely to me.

zmflavius, on 30 December 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

But we do get what seems to be a list of its ingredients:

moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal.

From wikipedia:

"Tansy was [also] used as a face wash and was reported to lighten and purify the skin."

Also:
"During the Middle Ages and later, high doses were used to induce abortions. Contradictorily, tansy was also used to help women conceive and to prevent miscarriages."

My point is,  just because the birth control pill has hormones in it, which do effectively prevent pregnancy, doesn't mean that there aren't many other herbs out there which can clean the skin, especially when it's in a mixture.  So who knows, maybe Margaery was using moon tea to make herself more fertile.

I assume that she went to Pycelle instead of her own maester either because of some plot that is Littlefinger-ish in proportion. When Sansa worries about Cersei discovering her in the Vale, he seems incredibly confident about removing the Queen from the Game.  Later on, he also mentions that he's vexed at how quickly Cersei is destroying herself because he had hoped that several "fruits would be given a few years to ripen"- who knows, one of those "fruits" may have to do with a plot involving Olenna, Margaery, and their catspaw, Pycelle.  We also know that in a few years, Tommen would be able to rule of his own accord, or be ruled through someone else.  That's just something else to consider, though.  

And let's face it, by this point, I think Pycelle is pretty pissed off at Cersei.  We only see how he acts from Cersei and Ned's POV.  One considers him a doddering old fool, the other a Lannister lapdog.  I think that he was indeed loyal to Tywin...but he's probably pissed off that he helped kill Jon Arryn (which was a big risk), got locked in the black cells by her little brother, and instead of any appreciation for what he did for Cersei, is instead constantly insulted.  Not to mention the fact that he was thrown in the cells for being loyal to Cersei.  I think that following Tywin's death he wants someone else to appreciate him, and Margaery is nothing if not appreciative (at least, on the surface).

Finally, we don't know what "moon tea" is. I looked it up and found no results.  Unless you were listing the ingredients IN moon tea, zmflavius.  In that case, I guess GRRM combined those herbs to make up what he calls moon tea.

Edited by dark sister, 31 December 2011 - 04:33 AM.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

dark sister, on 31 December 2011 - 04:23 AM, said:

Finally, we don't know what "moon tea" is. I looked it up and found no results.  Unless you were listing the ingredients IN moon tea, zmflavius.  In that case, I guess GRRM combined those herbs to make up what he calls moon tea.

I think the name speaks for itself:

Moon tea = a tea that makes a woman bleed her "moon blood" outside the regular menstrual cycle. And with the blood comes the fetus (if there is one).

No idea if it exists in the real world like that. But since menstrual bleeding is also called "moon blood" in the books it makes sense to me?

[dark sister]

BreastplateWithNipples, on 02 January 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

I think the name speaks for itself:

Moon tea = a tea that makes a woman bleed her "moon blood" outside the regular menstrual cycle. And with the blood comes the fetus (if there is one).

No idea if it exists in the real world like that. But since menstrual bleeding is also called "moon blood" in the books it makes sense to me?

Yeah, I know that. I was making another distinction, but it takes too long to explain it and doesn't matter anyway.  Suffice it to say I'm not that big a dufus, I get where the name comes from

[facelessgrl]

Shaggydog Stark, on 20 October 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

I agree to some extent but here is what I think happened; and this all conjecture:

Spoiler

I think that the Tyrells want to remove Cersei from power because she is messing up the ambitions of the Tyrells. They want to rule through Tommen and Cersei wants to rule herself. So they need to get rid of her, but how?

Margaery is the queen, as much as Cersei hates to admit it, and plotting against Margaery is as treasonous as plotting against the king.

I agree with you that Taena is a Tyrell mole. She befriends Cersei by falsely accusing Cersei's maid Senelle of spying on her. She starts to gain Cersei's trust, how Cersei could trust her is beyond me. Taena goes back to the Tyrells and tells them that Cersei is trying to get Osfryd to sleep with Margaery to accuse her of treason. Margaery plays along buying time. In the meantime the Tyrells befriend Pycelle.

Pycelle is fed up with Cersei and her idiocies and decides to play along. Finally Cersei gets fed up and tells Osfryd to go confess to the High Speton. The High Septon arrests Margaery, they do the vaginal test and discover that Margaery's maidenhead is in fact in tact. So now they are willing to listen to Margaery.

Margaery tells them how Cersei has been plotting against her. The High Septon believes Margaery since she is a maid and decides to help by playing along. He tortures Osfryd and gets the whole truth from him. I will stop here because I have read ADWD so I won't give anything away.

I agree with much of this!

A few more points to add/discuss:

I don't think that Pycelle is in on the Tyrell plot.  I think they are using him and expect him spill things to Cersi they want her to know.  The Tyrell's set it up that he is the only maester at King's Landing because they (Tyrell's) have sent their own maester to heal Loras at Dragonstone (who I don't think is hurt at all, just a way to get Cersi to think she is rid of Loras).

Loras going away is also part of the Tyrell plan.  He is the best swordsman on the Kingsguard and it would certainly be who Margery picks as her champion if she were to demand a trial by combat.  I don't think they knew the Ironborn would attack the Shield Islands, but once that happened they found their opportunity.

The Kettlebacks are interesting in all this.  In ASOS Littlefinger tells Sansa that the Kettlebacks were placed near Cersi for a reason.  He calls them 'three hidden daggers'.  I wonder if they are reporting all to their father who is working with Littlefinger.

And to get really off topic...did Jamie have a hand in this fall of Cersi?  There is a chapter in AFFC where he talks to Loras of the white book.  It seems Jamie is very interested in restoring some valor to the white cloaks and seems to think Loras is the man to do it.  Jamie and Loras talk of former kingsguard and in one particular, the Kingmaker.  Makes me think that Jamie would like to see his son be a king, a true king, without the evil mother ruling for him.

[Ser Lepus]

I think Moon tea is supposed to be an abortive, isn´t it? I think no woman would need to use it several times in a short span of time, since you only would use it when already pregnant; also, if she did, she would probably become very ill (medieval abortives weren´t jokes; they were poisons, only in doses too small to kill the mother...).

Edited by Ser Lepus, 04 January 2012 - 07:44 PM.